Author Topic: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity  (Read 5540 times)

Offline Minotaar

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2012, 04:39:00 pm »
One more remark on my idea: this does make Guardians stronger, since half of them no longer get picked off from 10,000 away with a 6x bonus. That might make those early mk4 worlds even more of a challenge. I'm not against that, but I'd really like to see what the latest reinforcement changes do before anything else  :)

Offline Jaunt

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2012, 05:04:52 pm »
Haven't replied to the last nine threads on this topic, so why not this one?

I second both Martyn and Minotaar's ideas: Bombers feel OP because their counter hardly exists on the AI side, save for waves. Fighters feel underpowered likewise because they lack a very good offensive role other than cheap fodder. Combined arms is a natural reaction to two sides constantly countering each other and countering the counters and then getting sick of the whole affair. The problem is the AI currently doesn't consciously counter anything, so a cap of bombers is just going to ignore the mixed bag of nuts sitting on a system, lose a few to the fighters, blow up a  post or nine and bug out.

So a bunch of suggestions:
*+1 to making fighters have a role on the offense (destroying guardians), and also maybe changing a few more hull types to fighter-friendly ones.
*+1 to more fighters because it'll make frigates have more of a role (also, fighters, insofar as they can shoot down fighters)
*And then I'll contribute giving the AI back some defensive teeth other than eyes. Taking systems seems trivial compared to defending them right now. Part of the perception of bombers being too powerful is that what they do is currently really easy.
*Also, some manner of neutral hull type for things that are huge and bad. If you're throwing your entire fleet at an HK, you shouldn't be relying on bomber multipliers or eating a penalty on turrets (why are turrets penalized against command grade again?). You could then give this hull type to HKs, AI golems, the Avenger, and whatever else I'm forgetting. It's slightly less thematic, but on the other hand, it removes one more tiny role from bombers and distributes it amongst the entire fleet. Plus if something is able to single-handedly take on your entire fleet, you should be doing actual damage in return with more than ~33% of your fleet.

Would some/all of these suggestions take more developer time than just rebalancing the triangle without changing hull types around? Absolutely. But sometimes necessary changes aren't easy.  I'd like to as civilly and constructively as humanly possible observe that rebalancing the triangle is essentially just making bombers more like fighters, and fighters more like bombers, and I would like to see distinct roles maintained more strikingly than that.

Offline Martyn van Buren

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2012, 05:13:54 pm »
I quite like the guardians hull types idea as well.  Although I think most of the guardians that are fleet-ship focussed already do have hulls that bombers are not good against.

Offline Diazo

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2012, 12:25:03 pm »
Alright, it seems like this thread is the place to post the suggestions that will end up making it into the voting options, so here we go.

Issue: Fighters are the weakest of the 3 triangle units and don't really have a place in the game at the moment.
Or, a better way to put it is that the design role of the fighters, that of being a all around general fleet ship killer is a role filled, and filled better, by many other units.

Numbers on paper: On paper, the Fighter has very strong numbers with a high base DPS, good armor piercing and high health. However, the way the game mechanics currently work, they all conspire to weaken the fighter so that even with its above average stats it is a weak unit.

I bring this up because with the numbers on paper already above average, a flat buff of the numbers will take that into 'high numbers' territory and numbers like that should be reserved for the bonus ships.

Personal Experience: In my games, fighters are a unit I pair up with bombers for making an attack into an AI system, the frigates stay home because of their slow speed. Now, frigates are one of the units that overshadow the fighter in the fleet ship killer role so people who bring frigates along on attack runs see the frigates doing all the work and the fighters doing nothing. Compared to my attacks where it is only fighters and bombers and so I see my fighters doing the killing of enemy fleet ships and I don't see bringing the fighter along being a waste. Especially once you consider it's cost.

Cost: One thing to keep in mind is the fighter costs 1/3 as much as a frigate and 1/4 as much as a bomber does to build. I'm seeing lots of comments to the point that cost is not an issue with the current economic setup but for me it is. I pretty much spend the early game bottomed out on resources and by the time I've got a bit of a buffer built up, it's time to start on fort construction.

If my attack force of fighters and bombers comes home with all the fighters dead and only 1/2 of the bombers lost, I still come out ahead on resources as compared to a bomber only strike that took out its target but was totally destroyed on the way home despite the fact that I lost 50% more ships in terms of numbers.

In other words, I like having a cheap unit that I don't have to care about losing. And for balance purposes a cheap unit has to be on the weaker end of the effectiveness spectrum otherwise you would never build anything else.

Game mechanics making the fighter weak: So, the numbers on fighters are decent and it's game mechanics making fighters weak? So, what mechanics are doing this then?

The presence of turrets: This is perhaps the biggest thing that overshadows the fighter. Because turrets are stationary their combat effectiveness is magnitudes larger then mobile units to make up for being stuck in one place. However, turrets fill the same role as fighters, that of killing fleet ships, so it is more efficient for players to bait the AI's forces into range of the turrets then it is to send fighters out to kill the fleet ships.

Offense favors bombers: With the presence of turrets, mobile ships have to have a purpose in AI controlled systems on the attack. However, with how skewed the game is towards large, stationary defensive structures it is the bomber that has the starring role when attacking the AI. You bring other ships along to keep the bombers alive but the bombers are all you care about.

That reduces the fighter to an escort role on the attack. It is a vital and necessary role but it is not glamorous at all and with the fighters short range it is not really quite as good as it should be at the escort role.

Weapon Range: The only real issue I have with the fighter's numbers. The fighter has one of the shortest attack ranges in the game, shorter even then the unit it is supposed to counter (the bomber). Due to how battle auto-follow works where a unit closes the range, it attacks, and then stays stationary while it reloads, then tries to moves into weapon range again. Because of this  fighters quite often only get a single salvo off and then never get another shot off as they try to catch up to there target while other units kill said target.

So, I would suggest buffing the fighters range to at least equal that of the bomber, if not to about 110% that of the bombers range. I expect this change alone would give the fighter all the help it needs, but to really take advantage the fighter needs a small speed boost.

Move Speed: The other issue I have with the fighter is that while its speed is slightly above average, it is still only really average. And it is the same as the bombers speed. Due to the attack-chase mechanic I just mentioned this means the fighter can't catch the bomber in a tail chase. So, boost the fighters speed slightly, to about 110% that of the bombers speed.

Conclusion: I agree the fighter is an underwhelming unit that current game mechanics prevent it from really being used as designed. I disagree that it is a broken unit and feel only small tweaks are needed to compensate for the fact that even with it's good numbers, current game mechanics sideline it as an underwhelming unit.

Alternative Fix: If the general community consensus disagrees with me and feels that the fighter is a broken unit, my alternative suggestion would be to give the fighter a massive speed boost, to 75 or 80% that of a raid starship to really highlight it's interceptor role to allow the fighter to get into a position where it's 150% base dps that it has on paper could be more effectively used. I personally don't see the fighter needing a boost this big but any fix I might support will have to account for the fact that the fighters numbers on paper are above average, it is other game mechanics that make the fighter underwhelming.

D.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2012, 12:26:31 pm »
Thanks for that Diazo. Very well stated.
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Offline Diazo

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2012, 12:43:28 pm »
Thank you.  :)

I'm forcing myself to keep in mind that game balancing is all about opinion, there is no absolute right or wrong here, just right or wrong based on how you personally play the game. (Which is what turned the last thread into the mess it did.)

I'll clarify my position if needed, but I've made where I stand clear and I am going to wait for the vote at this point to see what the community thinks.

(And then there's the question of what the devs think too.....)

D.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2012, 02:57:11 pm »
(And then there's the question of what the devs think too.....)
I've ignored the threads on this for some days now, didn't seem like they were getting anywhere ;)  Making a bunch of guardians into medium hulls seems like a good idea, though that may nerf the bomber starship since that's largely anti-guardian in role.  Other than that I'd been thinking of adding a slight boost to fighter speed, slight nerf to bomber speed, and making both more focused on damage to their bonus types (without really increasing it).
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Offline Diazo

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2012, 03:03:14 pm »
Overall that sounds okay to me, just this line however

and making both more focused on damage to their bonus types (without really increasing it).

A fighters only real strength at the moment is the fact that it has high base damage and low attack multipliers giving it the highest base dps in triangle. I'm not sure any changes that lower the fighters base dps is one that I would support.

More details needed on what exactly that phrase means, as I'm not even sure you know anything concrete as you mentioned you have not really been giving this any thought recently.

D.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2012, 03:04:59 pm »
Making a bunch of guardians into medium hulls seems like a good idea, though that may nerf the bomber starship since that's largely anti-guardian in role.

Could always give them a slight damage multiplier against Medium. ;)
Though as a multiplier-less starship, I don't really see how tweaking hull types effects them.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2012, 03:05:44 pm »
Quote
I've ignored the threads on this for some days now, didn't seem like they were getting anywhere ;)  Making a bunch of guardians into medium hulls seems like a good idea, though that may nerf the bomber starship since that's largely anti-guardian in role.  Other than that I'd been thinking of adding a slight boost to fighter speed, slight nerf to bomber speed, and making both more focused on damage to their bonus types (without really increasing it).
Nobody was going to upgrade the Bomber Starship anyway, there are so many better options.  And why not build the first one? It's free.

Your changes sound good to me, I hope you don't mind me doing the poll anyway to see what the general community consensus is though.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2012, 03:11:18 pm »
Overall that sounds okay to me, just this line however

and making both more focused on damage to their bonus types (without really increasing it).

A fighters only real strength at the moment is the fact that it has high base damage and low attack multipliers giving it the highest base dps in triangle. I'm not sure any changes that lower the fighters base dps is one that I would support.

More details needed on what exactly that phrase means, as I'm not even sure you know anything concrete as you mentioned you have not really been giving this any thought recently.

D.
Yea, I'm kind of back and forth on that.  One general trend I've seen is that stuff with high base dps and low multipliers is seen as underpowered and/or samey (and I can see why that would be).  So it occurred to me that perhaps that's part of why fighters feel underwhelming.  But in general the dps-focusing I had in mind was more important for the bomber: it's more ok for it to be awesome against some things if it's more decisively non-awesome against other stuff.

Your changes sound good to me, I hope you don't mind me doing the poll anyway to see what the general community consensus is though.
By all means, go ahead.  I hope you don't mind me doing something totally different ;)  Though in general I don't just ditch such results unless I think they came from misunderstandings of the current state of the game.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2012, 03:12:19 pm »
Lol if you ditched the results it wouldn't bother me a bit.  Especially because I get the feeling the results will be "nothing should be changed", considering how hyper-conservative this community seems to be.

Quote
Yea, I'm kind of back and forth on that.  One general trend I've seen is that stuff with high base dps and low multipliers is seen as underpowered and/or samey (and I can see why that would be).  So it occurred to me that perhaps that's part of why fighters feel underwhelming.  But in general the dps-focusing I had in mind was more important for the bomber: it's more ok for it to be awesome against some things if it's more decisively non-awesome against other stuff.
It's because Bombers and Frigates cover the whole spectrum with their 11 total 6x multipliers.  "High base DPS" doesn't mean much when the other counterparts are doing 4 or 5x that DPS to their intended targets does it?
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2012, 03:13:37 pm »
Lol if you ditched the results it wouldn't bother me a bit.  Especially because I get the feeling the results will be "nothing should be changed", considering how hyper-conservative this community seems to be.
It depends on the way they're approached :)  We've been doing tons of balance changes lately, many at the instigation of that same community.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2012, 03:15:48 pm »
Most of the balance changes have targeted improving a specific type of playstyle, not opening up or being considerate of new ones as far as I can tell.  The Republican Party has lots of changes it wants to make too, but that doesn't mean they aren't conservative  ;D
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Offline Minotaar

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2012, 03:24:16 pm »
(And then there's the question of what the devs think too.....)
I've ignored the threads on this for some days now, didn't seem like they were getting anywhere ;)  Making a bunch of guardians into medium hulls seems like a good idea, though that may nerf the bomber starship since that's largely anti-guardian in role.  Other than that I'd been thinking of adding a slight boost to fighter speed, slight nerf to bomber speed, and making both more focused on damage to their bonus types (without really increasing it).

I don't think the Bomber Starship it all that great at being an anti-guardian... I mean, it takes a while to kill even a mk2 guardian with a cap of those, in that time they're going to get in range and promptly get devastated by Frigates and Plasma Siege Starships (these last ones are probably the best guardian killers right now. Best most-things-killers, in fact.  :) ) I mostly use them as a second cap of Raids when clearing Eyes and guardposts in general, it feels a bit too risky and costly to throw them at guardians where they'll be under fire from fleetships they can't damage. In general they share a lot of space with Raids, and the comparison isn't usually in their favor.

One general trend I've seen is that stuff with high base dps and low multipliers is seen as underpowered and/or samey (and I can see why that would be). 

I really don't feel like that, for me it varies a ton on a ship-by-ship basis. I mean, Stealth Battleships have 1.4x multipliers and I didn't see anybody saying those are underpowered  ;D I think it's more about the ship leaving a certain impression: Fighters and Bomber Starships don't really get awesome moments, but Plasma Sieges certainly do, the SSBs do too... in a table-flipping kind of way.  :) I think rate of fire has a large effect on this, actually. A lot of the stuff that has 1-2s reloads feels weak, even if it really isn't.