Author Topic: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity  (Read 5539 times)

Offline Wingflier

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So my previous thread went better than expected, and it seems that all (most) of us can agree that we want the Triangle to be relatively balanced with each other.  By that I mean, we all want each unit in the Triangle to be more or less equally useful for their role.  Obviously, perfect balance is impossible, but most people also seem to agree that it could be a lot better.

I have therefore decided to make this community brainstorming exercise, to see if we can flesh out some ideas about how to fix the problem.

Most people seem to agree that the Bomber is too powerful, but there's is widespread disagreement over how to change it, or whether it should be changed at all.  The Fighter, by proxy, is a subject of even more controversy, as many people seem to like the place it's in right now, where others find it to be glorified meat shield, way under par of Bombers, and even Frigates in terms of effectiveness.

The purpose of this thread is for the community to post and discuss their ideas about how to handle this situation, in a friendly, non-critical environment.

The motto of this thread is, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all".

We will not be criticizing or disagreeing with each others suggestions in this thread.  If there is an idea that you like, you are welcome (and encouraged) to explain why you like that idea.  If there is an idea you don't like, you can simply ignore it.  At the end, we will tally up all the popular ideas and make a poll on them so that people can vote for their favorite(s).

If you don't think anything needs to be changed, then you don't need to post in this thread.  The poll will have an option that reflects a satisfaction with the current state of the Triangle, and you can vote for it there.

In my first post, I will give an example of how to present an idea in an informative and non-threatening way.

Thank you for your participation!

note:  Changing the distribution of the hull type multipliers, while a good solution, is not currently an option as Keith has said a complete rebalance will be much too time-consuming for his currently busy schedule.  As such, try to keep your solutions relatively simple, and time-friendly.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 10:02:46 am by Wingflier »
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2012, 10:02:00 am »
My Analysis:  The problem with the Triangle is that the Bomber is disproportionately powerful and useful compared with the other two Fleet Ships.  It has the speed and durability of a Fighter, and a 6x damage bonus against the most numerous and important ship types in the game.  Against these ship types (Heavy, Artillery, Command-Grade, Ultra-Heavy, and Structural), it does 4 times more than the Fighter, and 5 times more than the Frigates.

The only drawback, in fact, that Bombers seem to have when compared to Fighters, is that they cost around 4 times as much.  However, the cost:benefit ratio of the two ships still seems hopelessly skewed, especially when you consider how easy resources are to come by with the current game mechanics. 

Please note that my solution is balancing for the current game mechanics.  If people have a problem with the current economic model, hull type distributions, or whatever else, please feel free to make your own threads on these issues.  However, I consider the current state of these mechanics to be the current state of the game, and as such I will be taking them into consideration while balancing, as I have seen no indication that they are going to be changed anytime soon.  If they ARE changed, then like anything, a new rebalance can be discussed.

Frigates seem to be in a relatively good place, with their major current weakness (in my opinion) coming from the lackluster nature of Fighters, the ship they are designed to counter.  In theory, buffing Fighters will be a direct buff to Frigates, as they will become much more necessary in fending them off.

My Conclusion:

Considering the currently underpowered/lackluster state of Fighters, and the currently overpowered/disproportionately useful state of Bombers, my solution is to bridge the gap between the two ships by buffing one and nerfing the other, while attempting to keep their roles intact. 

Triangle Roles:

Bomber - The Bomber is an anti-Heavy unit destroyer, and as such, excels against Guard Posts, Guardians, and Force Fields; as well as Fortresses, Golems, Hybrids, Frigates, and many powerful Spire ships.  Given the importance of these targets, the Bomber will always be a necessary unit, regardless of whether or not the other two Triangle ships are useful as well.

Frigate - The Frigate is an anti-Light unit destroyer, designed to take out swarms of light and powerful enemy ships before they can even get in range.  As such, it excels against Fighters, Melee Ships, Swarmers, Raiders, Neinzul Ships, and most cloaked threats.

Fighter - The Fighter, having had most of the important roles in the game taken by either the Frigate or the Bomber, is a cheap, all-purpose interceptor and raider, who is decent against any ship, but strong against none. 

My Solution:

1. Buff Fighter raw damage by 50% [117,600 -> 176,400]
2. Buff Fighter speed from 76 -> 80.
3. Nerf Fighter multipliers by 33% [Medium 2.4 -> 1.6| Close-Combat 2.4 -> 1.6| Polycrystal 5 -> 3.3] - Damage against these hull types stays nearly the same.
4. Buff Bomber raw damage by 25% [78,400 -> 98,000]
5. Nerf Bomber multipliers against Heavy, Ultra-Heavy, Structural, Artillery, and Command-Grade by 33% [6 -> 4]
6. Nerf Bomber speed from 76 -> 62.

Explanation:

Using my proposed changes, the Fighter becomes 50% more powerful against all targets (except the ones it's intended to counter, to which its damage has not changed).  It has also become slightly faster, in an attempt to accentuate its role as raider, interceptor, and all-purpose fleet ship.

The Bomber's base damage goes up by 25%, but its multipliers are dropped by 33%.  This part is not really a nerf as much as a rebalance of the Bomber's strengths.  It does 25% more now against all targets, except for its bonuses, to which it now does 20% less than before.

Where before, the Bomber did 4 times as much damage to said targets as the Fighter, it now does 2.2 times more, making it significantly more powerful against said targets, but not the ONLY fleetship capable of putting a dent in their hull.

Bomber speed is nerfed slightly (14) in an attempt to clarify its role as a medium-speed heavy hitter, instead of a blazing fast harbinger of death.

Final Scenario:

In the ideal final scenario, all 3 Triangle ship types will be worth building and upgrading for a variety of situations, instead of the Bomber being the only one worth fully upgrading in most games.  What Triangle ships you use and upgrade will be heavily dependent on the game you're in and obstacles you're facing.  All 3 Triangle ships will excel at their role, and be good in different situations, but hopefully complement each other's strengths and weaknesses.

Alternative Changes:

1. Alternatively, to further accentuate the Fighter's "Jack-of-all-Trades, Master of None" role, we could give its two anti-swarm multipliers (Medium and Close-Combat) to Frigates instead.  This would be a slight buff to Frigates as well.

2. We could give the new Fighters a sub-role of countering Starships, by giving them a moderate multiplier towards them.  Anti-Starship is a role they had before that many people seem to miss.

3. Give Fighters "Gravity Effect Immunity", making them more of a threat on defense, and not so easily held in place by Gravity Turrets and killed before they can inflict any damage.  This would also give them a niche role of being decent against Gravity Guardians, Gravity Drains, and Gravity Rippers, while nerfing the power of Gravity Turrets, a structure that many have claimed is overpowered for its cost.

-------------------

Thank you for reading.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 12:25:48 pm by Wingflier »
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2012, 11:16:43 am »
Yeah, it's currently pretty much "bombers and the other two ships". You buy bombers because they're the only options for heavy fortifications, you buy some frigates because they're artillery but you only buy fighters because they're there. The only reason to specifically dispatch a fighter fleet is because of an incoming bomber wave.

I believe it was in 3.0 when the fighter was described as a high-dps powerhouse for anti-starship use, if that role was moved from the bomber to the fighter the bomber would still be needed for breaching shields, forts and core commands but the fighter would have another niche to be used in. Of course this again creates the intuitiveness issue of fighters not matching the sci-fi fighter archetype but saying "fighters go against fleetships" wouldn't work either since fleetships come in so many heterogeneous hull types.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2012, 12:22:42 pm »
Yeah, it's currently pretty much "bombers and the other two ships". You buy bombers because they're the only options for heavy fortifications, you buy some frigates because they're artillery but you only buy fighters because they're there. The only reason to specifically dispatch a fighter fleet is because of an incoming bomber wave.

I believe it was in 3.0 when the fighter was described as a high-dps powerhouse for anti-starship use, if that role was moved from the bomber to the fighter the bomber would still be needed for breaching shields, forts and core commands but the fighter would have another niche to be used in. Of course this again creates the intuitiveness issue of fighters not matching the sci-fi fighter archetype but saying "fighters go against fleetships" wouldn't work either since fleetships come in so many heterogeneous hull types.
I'm certainly not against making Fighters specialize against Starships, I think it's a nice role for them to have.  Even though it doesn't fit into the "classical Sci-Fi archetype", we could make it really obvious that its one of their strengths using game mechanics.  For example, I think the best solution would to add a new hull type to the game called "Starship", then by putting it into the Fighter's multiplier bonuses, everyone could quickly look and know that's one thing they excel against.  This would make a lot more sense than changing all the Starship's hull types to "Medium", for example.

Another thing we could do to buff Fighters and separate them a bit from the other two is to give them Gravity Effect Immunity.  A lot of people say that the reason they're so easy to defend against is that Gravity Turrets hold them in place long enough to kill them before they can even get in range of your Fleet or Turrets.  Giving them Gravity Immunity would make the player have to plan a bit better to defend against them (the way you would have to plan if you were facing a wave of Bombers or Frigates), and disable them with Tractor Beams, Paralyze, or Engine Damage instead.  It would also be a nerf to the Gravity Turrets, a defense that many people have claimed is far too powerful for its cost.  This would also give them a nice niche role of countering Gravity Guardians and a few powerful bonus ship types like Gravity Drains and Gravity Rippers.  I'll actually add this idea to my "Alternative Changes" list.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2012, 12:28:51 pm »
Careful, gravity is supposed to be something that VERY few things have immunity against.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2012, 12:30:27 pm »
It's just an alternative suggestion.  I didn't realize it was supposed to be all-inclusive (every other game mechanic seems to have its fair share of immunity) ;p
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2012, 01:18:21 pm »
I think your DPS changes are too extreme.  Bonus ships are supposed to be 30% better than triangle, but you've increased Fighter DPS by 50%.  Not to mention Bombers do NOT need any form of general damage boost.  You don't touch on the odd range issues between the two ships, and you've skipped by far the easiest fix already proposed which would be to give some key Guardians Medium hulls.

But I'm honestly too exhausted with this topic to even bother reading it anymore.  There have been 3 or 4 threads now plus 3 or 4 mantis issues, and your suggested fixes haven't changed much since the first.  It is effectively you repeating the same thing over and over again.  I've already voiced why I don't like those changes.  There are plenty of issues deserving of more attention than this one, and with the new expansion I'd much rather be playing with that then arguing over this when it largely appears it be going nowhere.

Offline Minotaar

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2012, 01:32:51 pm »
Idea: Make the Fighter specialize in killing Guardians.

Analysis:

All three triangle ships have reasonable defensive capabilities. The Frigate has a wide variety of bonuses and is almost untouchable with its range, the Bomber is, while usually underwhelming for its cost against normal waves, crucial against the heavy units in exo-waves, and the Fighter's cheap cost and fast produciton time are of high importance on defense, where defending ships are usually outnumbered and will take heavy losses.
Their offensive roles, however, are not as equal. There are three main components to the AI's planetary defense strategy:
- Fleet ships
- Guardians
- Heavy Defenses (forcefields and fortresses)

It would make sense to have each triangle ship to be good against one of these components. The Bomber is obviously good at destroying Heavy Defenses. Not so clear between the Fighters and Frigates, but statistics from several games seem to agree that the Frigate is generally effective at destroying Fleet Ships, scoring the highest amount of kills between the triangle ships. We would have a parity if the Fighters were specialized at destroying Guardians, but as of now the hull-types of Guardians are split between being weak to all three triangle ships, with the Frigate actually countering the highest amount of Guardians. With its range it often means that the Fighter doesn't even get a shot at it.

Assuming we give most Guardians a single hull-type that's weak to Fighters, which one will it be? Actually the Medium type that Fighters are already good against is a good canditate, because it currently doesn't have a strong identity associated with it, like Close-Combat (obvious), Swarmer (obvious), Refractive (cloakers), Polycrystal (bombers), etc. Here's a list of fleet ships that have the Medium hull type:

  • MLRS
  • Sentinel Frigate
  • Spire Armor Rotter
  • Spire Blade Spawner
  • Spire Teleporting Leech
  • Teleport Battle Station
  • Zenith Paralyzer

There is absolutely no underlying theme to this set of ships, so we can make Medium a place for Guardians instead of a place for "couldn't come up with anything better".

Proposed Changes:

Hull type changed to Medium for the following types of Guardians:

  • EMP   
  • Heavy Beam   
  • Laser   
  • Lightning   
  • Special Forces Rally   
  • Spire Implosion   
  • Starship Disassembler   
  • Tachyon   
  • Tractor   
  • Vampire   

Intended effects of the changes on the game:

  • Fighters get a clear and important role on the offense
  • Cheap cost of the Fighter perfectly fits the new role, allowing them to actively protect more expensive ships from Guardians
  • Other Fighter-type bonus ships inherit this role automatically, as well as Snipers (fits them perfectly), Vampire Claws (also seems to fit), and... Shield Bearers? (okay, whatever)
  • Minimal risk of collateral damage, as only the Guardians are touched

The numbers work out so that a cap of mk1 Fighters will one or two-shot a mk2 Guardian, and a cap of mk1+mk2 will be able to one-shot mk2s, about half of the mk3s and only two-shot mk4s. (The two most popular health values for guardians are 800k*mark and 1120k*mark.)





Offline Draco18s

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2012, 01:57:49 pm »
That right there is actually the most reasonable solution I've seen yet.

While I agree with the fact that the guardians should have varying armor types (as to not be countered by one unit), a heavy weighting towards being countered by the fighter would do wonders to balance the bomber's strength versus "anything with more than a million HP."

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2012, 02:13:48 pm »
@ Hearteater - You've missed the point of this thread.  This a place where people can come to share their ideas in an informative way without being criticized/turning the thread into a flame war.

Please reread the original post:

"The purpose of this thread is for the community to post and discuss their ideas about how to handle this situation, in a friendly, non-critical environment.

The motto of this thread is, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all"
."

If you don't like an idea, then don't vote for it in the polls.

Thank you.

---


@Minotaar - Thank you for your brilliant idea and brilliant presentation.  Great job so far everyone.
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Offline Minotaar

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2012, 02:24:30 pm »
That right there is actually the most reasonable solution I've seen yet.

While I agree with the fact that the guardians should have varying armor types (as to not be countered by one unit), a heavy weighting towards being countered by the fighter would do wonders to balance the bomber's strength versus "anything with more than a million HP."

Just for reference the ones I didn't list:
Artillery (Artillery hull, low hp anyway, so no need for multiplier, cheap and fast is what counters it, and Fighter doesn't quite deliver on the "fast" part, which is intended. Well, and it's called Artillery, so duh.  :) )
Carrier (already medium)
Flak (already medium)
Gravity (Artillery, and only Frigates can shoot it anyway, so they keep it)
Raider (low hp)
Self-Destruct (low hp)
Spider/Sniper (see Artillery)
Warp Gate (yeah, for this one you're bringing your whole fleet anyway, might as well have a 5x from bombers than a 2.4x from fighters. Is it really necessary for it to have 16m*mark HP? I guess that's a question for another time.)
Zombie (already medium AND has low hp, this one could get its dps/health ratio tilted in the opposite direction, right now it's a matter of remembering to right-click on it :) Also for another time, though )

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2012, 03:05:36 pm »
I agree with the fighters > guardians bit. I just don't like how the fighters are just kinda like the 'eh, send in the cheap stuff I guess' ships, or at least that's how it seems to me. Giving them that more defined role means I can have three types of ships all running around and doing their own jobs.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2012, 03:06:52 pm »
I agree with the fighters > guardians bit. I just don't like how the fighters are just kinda like the 'eh, send in the cheap stuff I guess' ships, or at least that's how it seems to me. Giving them that more defined role means I can have three types of ships all running around and doing their own jobs.
I agree that's pretty cool.
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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2012, 03:09:46 pm »
I would buff fighter damage to twice its current level, and nerf bomber speed to 65, with no other changes (beyond maybe a slight increase in fighter resource cost).
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Offline Martyn van Buren

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Re: Balancing the Fleet Triangle - A Community Brainstorming Activity
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2012, 04:16:07 pm »
Copied from Mantis:

Following on the recent complaints that bombers feel overpowered and that taking AI worlds can be too easy, I think it might help if the AI simply put more fighters on its worlds. It is true (and seems reasonable that) in nearly all games bombers are the main ship you want to use for hitting the big defensive structures on AI worlds, and it seems like it would be reasonable for the AI to be prepared for that. Players usually recognize that bombers are one of the most threatening ships you can get in a wave and design their defenses accordingly.

I think that this change might be a pretty easy way of complicating the process of taking worlds without making big changes. If most AI worlds had a substantial fighter presence, it would hardly cripple the bomber, but it would sometimes make it necessary to find alternatives or ways of getting them around the planet safely to get their work done.

It might also be worth letting AI fighters have a lower threashold for leaving their posts or seeding some of them on local FRD; they're meant to be rapid-response units and it seems reasonable to let them do some rapid responding.

< http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=9149 >