Balancing for 4.0

[keith.lamothe]

Now that most of the more serious/fundamental issues have calmed down (still chasing the OSX crash, and trying to make the game even more heap-static to avoid the wrath of the GC), one of the big things kind of looming over me is "is this game even remotely balanced?".  In general I think the answer is yes, but after the huge mechanic changes with shields->armor and specific-bonuses->hull-type-bonuses I'm sure that there are some simply silly imbalances out there.  Y'all have already reported a number of them, and we're really grateful, but if you can keep a particular eye out for this sort of thing as you test/play, and let us know what you find, that would be very cool

I'm half-way of a mind to open up a subforum with a topic for every type of ship (one for fighter, one for bomber, one for missile frigate, one for anti-armor, one for mlrs, etc...) but that would be pretty overkill

Anyway, I'm particularly interested in the balance of the three "triangle" ship types against every other ship type, and to a somewhat lesser degree the balance of all the available-at-the-start starships and turrets.  And of course everything else, but there are priorities.

You may find the reference tab (on the stats screen) useful in finding outliers, etc, though it tells only a very incomplete story compared to actual gameplay experience.

Go forth, find silliness, and report it   Discussion of is-this-really-a-problem and all that can go here, and Mantis is the best place for the actual reports so we can search, prioritize, track completion, etc, but you could post the report links here.

Anyway, I'm off to combat the windmillGarbage Collector

[CogDissident]

Honestly, while I like the change from shields to armor, I think armor right now is a bit wonky.


You absolutely need every single fleet to be equally damaging to all types, and any world with mark 4 guardians near your start is a death sentence. They can spawn mk4 or mk5 flak guardians that can kill entire fleets in seconds, and have armor values so high nothing can hurt them.

And since the AI uses all types of guardians (who have all types of armor) you can't really "focus" on any one strategy, other than "build everything and hope you covered all your multipliers". Because if you have a hole, then your entire army is going to die to whatever you lack the bonus to.

[keith.lamothe]

Well, bear in mind that the armor change and the hull-type-bonus change are entirely separate, though they were done at the same time.

For the flak guardians, is that from the last couple versions?  We discovered their max-targets-hit-per-burst was like 10x higher than it was supposed to be and cranked that down.

[TheMachineIsSentient]

I understand your point cog. I think the question to be answered is, are you making the choice of which technology to research based on your enemy or not? I think that the purpose of the multipliers and the armor is to enforce tough choices and strategic decision-making. If that's not happening, specific examples would help. I can tell you, if I am playing Starfleet Cmdr. or I am playing a youngling AI, my strategies are different because of that system.

[keith.lamothe]

I'm curious, though, is the "have to bring everything to make sure I have a counter for everything" feeling actually stronger with hull-type-bonuses as opposed to the old system of ship-type-specific-bonuses?  I recall from my own personal painful experience that it was possible to bring in a fairly mixed fleet and still run into something big, nasty, and largely immune to everything I have

So I guess my question is whether this is a new problem (at least in the subjective sense) in the Unity version, or status quo?

[TheMachineIsSentient]

If you bring everything but the kitchen sink now, The Eye mechanic should punish you. You really should bring the best ships for the job.

[Sizzle]

I'm curious, though, is the "have to bring everything to make sure I have a counter for everything" feeling actually stronger with hull-type-bonuses as opposed to the old system of ship-type-specific-bonuses?  I recall from my own personal painful experience that it was possible to bring in a fairly mixed fleet and still run into something big, nasty, and largely immune to everything I have

So I guess my question is whether this is a new problem (at least in the subjective sense) in the Unity version, or status quo?

Commenting on a theory crafting basis only, as I am still traveling on business, so can't test. In the past, the AI only had certain fleet ships unlocked, and you could choose to research hard counters to these. AI progress would allow the AI to unlock further fleet ship types, but to a large extent you could play rock, paper, scissors, lizard, spock.    My impression from these posts is that the AI can place ANY type of guardia n starting from scratch - and that you need "everything" from the get-go.  See the following
 

And since the AI uses all types of guardians (who have all types of armor) you can't really "focus" on any one strategy, other than "build everything and hope you covered all your multipliers". Because if you have a hole, then your entire army is going to die to whatever you lack the bonus to.

If this is actually the case, I'd suggest that a similar 'starts with a few that you can discover via scouting and unlocks more' mechanic may be in order.  It reinforces the concept of smart strategic fleet management, based on solid scouting practices.

Otherwise, I'm inclined to agree that this causes a 'requires evereything' mentality.   

[Gallant Dragon]

Commenting on a theory crafting basis only, as I am still traveling on business, so can't test. In the past, the AI only had certain fleet ships unlocked, and you could choose to research hard counters to these. AI progress would allow the AI to unlock further fleet ship types, but to a large extent you could play rock, paper, scissors, lizard, spock.    My impression from these posts is that the AI can place ANY type of guardia n starting from scratch - and that you need "everything" from the get-go.  See the following
 

And since the AI uses all types of guardians (who have all types of armor) you can't really "focus" on any one strategy, other than "build everything and hope you covered all your multipliers". Because if you have a hole, then your entire army is going to die to whatever you lack the bonus to.

If this is actually the case, I'd suggest that a similar 'starts with a few that you can discover via scouting and unlocks more' mechanic may be in order.  It reinforces the concept of smart strategic fleet management, based on solid scouting practices.

Otherwise, I'm inclined to agree that this causes a 'requires evereything' mentality.   

That IS interesting...
Maybe have the AI use only certain kinds of guardians based on AI type/random choice?
Mind you, in the past we didn't have this problem because bombers were good against all turrets in general.

[Arcain_One]

Or perhaps the AI should only have guardian mark level based to its AI progress, same as the wave mark level. I sorta makes sense: why make overly expensive defenses if you don't feel threatened?

I think the AI should still get guardians next to your starting world(s), but only if its balanced enough for the player to handle it.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

I played a game earlier with Fox and I noticed that I am slowly forcing myself out of the BLOB-OF-DOOM method that I usually use.  In an experimental game in patch 3.7XX before the current game I'm in, I was actually thinking pretty strategically and the game is starting to require that.  I think the fact that guardians can have the power to wipe out your fleet because you bunched up is a good thing, however.  

I'm not sure if it's my lack of experience (probably is), but it is rather insane to try and think strategically on the run, especially when moving specific ships in your fleet.    Well, at least this is what I would have said before I realized at the end of our game today that there is a menu on the right of the screen with your ships separated out in groups and the fact that I've glossed over this fact for so long is actually rather pathetic.  

Overall, I think balance is starting to get back on this game.  However, I might suggest giving Guardians another look over before publishing 4.0.  In some cases they are too weak, in others they are not.  I'll take a big notice when a Flak or Artillery guardian is raining down on me and I LOVE this.  It means I need to pay attention and not just send my ships on autopilot.  However, when it comes to Laser Guardians or Heavy Beam ones, I barely acknowledge their existence and they get pounded by a combination of Sieges and random other ships.  I also wonder if they are almost too strong for their own good, when they come screaming into my system in packs, it is rather painful watching them eat up my system.  Granted, the AI needs this, otherwise it won't have much of a bite and I'm glad they are more severe repercussions for even entering an AI system.  
(tl;dr, give Guardians another look over).  

I'd say something about Neinzul, but we haven't played a game long enough to get attacked by them yet.  (Darn you college and real life!!)

Also, maybe, and I stress maybe, check out fleet ships again.  Starships seem pretty well balanced but I wonder if fleet ships die just a little too quickly.  Probably my lack of XP kicking in again.  The slight nerf on Ion Cannons is a godsend because sieging systems with multiple ion cannons hurt before, now its not quite so painful.  

Hope this helps and if Fox and I get another game in tomorrow, I'll have another report.  

King

[zebramatt]

As I posted in one of the release threads, I was having an immensely difficult time with Armour Boosters until I actually took the time to check all the starting turrets. Turns out Lasers are immensely useful there!

All in, as long as there's a starting turret, fleet ship or starship which can crack any armour type the AI might throw at me, the current game actually makes for a far more strategic experience.

But I definitely agree the Guardians could still use a little balancing. Flaks I've noticed too can pop onto a planet, munch every single turret in a couple of minutes and leave the door wide open for ships for which I only have a turret counter - then it's goodbye Command Centre!

And I agree that it feels a little off that Guardians are so powerful, the AI can't use them on worlds adjacent to my Home. I'd much rather some sort of scaling factor for planets and/or their Guardians around my Home - so they do have some sort of significant defence there but it's still not going to cause me a quick loss (unless I do something really stupid).

All that said, I actually don't think it's far off right now. I like the new challenges and the strategic thinking which is required to overcome them. I don't think the game's actually gotten generally harder - it just requires more strategy, which must be a good thing for a strategy game!

[Lancefighter]

Id much rather have guardians everywhere...

Just without that damn turret bonus.

[superking]

flaks are still horrifiying even after the 5x reduction 

I think a subforum which had every single ship as a thread would be great, though it might take a while to fill up

[Mánagarmr]

Flaks are just right now, in my opinion. They are fearsome enough that you go "OH CRAP!" when one is nearby and you pretty much make sure to get out of the way to snipe it. It's kind of a "Devourer golem" feeling. I love it!

Artillery Guardians are really a pain in the ass, but I kinda like them too. They make for great priority targets. But as King said, the other guardians just get run over without you ever noticing them much.

[orzelek]

Id much rather have guardians everywhere...

Just without that damn turret bonus.

I second this opinion... they maybe meant to raid but ability to counter all types of turrets gives guardians a bit to much. That means for example that artillery guardian will simply clear out your planet from turrets if you don't have tons of ships on planet that can kill it quickly.