Balancing Champions

[KDR_11k]

Have you considered tying spawning the threatfleet nemesis to the player's Champion death?  So basically, the spawn interval is reduced by X minutes each time you get your Champion killed.  That would create an additional reason not to just throw away your champion.

That could also lead to MOBA-level animosity between players because of feeding.

[Hearteater]

It won't.  1) You can already screw the team in multi-player just by running around waking up AI ships that will form into a massive threatball, and 2) this isn't solo Q.

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, in multiplayer you can already totally throw the game for your whole team, whether you play normal, normal+champion, or champion-only.

It amuses the AI.

[snelg]

On the topic of balancing champions I managed to convince two friends to try the game out a few weeks ago with mixed success. They would do the champion thing while I did the normal building.

Now this was the first time with champion ships for me too (except for quick test to see if it worked) so maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about here. Also it was a while ago so I might have forgotten something important so just tell me if I got it wrong.

The way experience was handled felt a bit awkward. You would only get it from guard posts etc. and you had to be on the planet when it went down. This led to us always moving them to the same planet to not miss all the experience.

Later when they were doing a nebula thing with 3 sides for a good 40 minutes or so (because it was such a slow grind) I was left wondering if I should really destroy anything that could have given them experience in the meantime. Because hey, I'm basically just removing resources for them here while gaining ai progress too. It felt really awkward. I was keeping busy building my fleet and some proper defenses in the meantime but yeah.

So I was wondering, Is there a reason normal ai ships don't give you any experience?
It could have been a very small amount and level requirements could be moved up in the worst case.

Is there a reason why the things that actually give you experience currently has to be in the same system?
Combined with the fact that it's limited and you don't get anything for normal ships you're kind of nudged into sending everything to one system at a time because it gives you more resources.

I also recalled one of them saying he upgraded some weapon too much and couldn't put it on his ship anymore (leveling one weapon felt like a good idea because it makes it more effective against things it's good against and less bad against things it's not good against instead of having to switch all the time I guess). Which sounded kind of strange but it might've just been an error on our side.

[Lancefighter]

for the most part beyond level 1/2 theres not much xp in buildings (outside of nebulas). Sure, from a min/maxers perspective, its ideal for the champion to always be there. But its not that big of a deal. Its somewhat important to note that higher mk give slightly better rewards. I believe the design here was to provide the champion with something to do while he is not in a nebula (as in, solo neutering a system or something)

The three sided nebula mission is a pain in the ass early on. If you arent familiar with how to do it, it seems impossible to force a victory. Even if you are, its not exactly the quickest. For the most part, getting that before destroyer at least makes me pretty sad..

Normal ships dont really give xp because it creates this odd infinite farm scenario. Sure, some might say thats not a bad idea, but for the most part its not required. the idea is to put champions in nebulas to progress - and for the most part, thats the only way to do it.

as for the per-system requirements - It used to be a fair bit worse. It used to be possible to kill things with certain modules from a range where you didn't get xp. Thats thankfully been changed,

There are limits on how high level a module can be to fit on certain hulls - The standard frigate can only fit up to mk2 modules, for instance. Its I believe written in the tooltip of the ship itself. Also, certain weapons just plain dont fit on some hulls.

[Toranth]

If Champions are going to provoke an additional, offensive AI reaction, will the other AI reactions be toned down?  The additional wave size modifier, the nemesis spawns, etc.

Personally, I still think that on difficulties above 9, the Champions are more of a hinderance than a help in the long term.  The Threatfleet and Special Forces can permanently shut down your Champion if they get big enough.  With the enhanced Homeworld defenses now available to the AI, even the Champions and Nebula Ships do not provide any great advantage in that fight, either. 
Of course, I've been trying for months to beat a Diff10 Heroic AI when I'm using Champions.  I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that it's not possible, no matter how I cheese.  And I long ago gave up on multi-Champion Fallen Spire at higher difficulties.  Just... no.

Thinking back, I thought that one major point for creating the Champions in the first place was to give a player something to do to prevent boredom during the downtime.  "Fleetwipe?  Time to whip out the Champion and go do a Nebula while I rebuild."  If you can't use your Champion during reconstruction or downtime, it sorta ruins that idea...

I think any anti-Champion plan should be limited to impacting the Champion.  Yes, an EMP attack or a instant double wave triggered by the Champions is an effective way to punish the player for using the Champion.  But it punishes the use of the Champion by impaction something ELSE.  No direct cause/effect.  Champion wins a nebula, Anti-Champion units blow up your fleet.  Wait, what?  That's just not fun, to me.  But something like Champion wins a Nebula, Anti-Champion uses a Shadow-virus missile to temporarily knock the Champion down a hull size.  That make sense, is logically connected, and just plain more interesting.

The one component of the game designed for Champions, the nebulas, are currently well balanced for them.  With 1 Champion or 8, none of the nebula are easy and some are very hard.  Just they way they should be.  And so, in my opinion, there's no need to balance the entire rest of the game around Champions, too.

[keith.lamothe]

If Champions are going to provoke an additional, offensive AI reaction, will the other AI reactions be toned down?  The additional wave size modifier, the nemesis spawns, etc.

Good point, the wave size multiplier and so on could use a bit of a nerf if the AI's getting extra stuff to throw.  At least, it's possible that it needs that, we'll see.

[Wingflier]

I'm grateful that you're finally adding something to make champion games challenging. Previously the AI "force increase" was too small to notice while Champions and their allies eventually hit a snowball effect that just allowed you to more or less V-click through any system. I want to use champions but I want it to be just as challenging. Maybe put the champion added difficulty on a variable scale that the player can change?

[KDR_11k]

Waking ships or killing AIP increasing structures can be avoided even by inept players (the former by not going into too many planets, the latter by simply not targeting them), death is something that happens more by mistake.

[Toranth]

I'm grateful that you're finally adding something to make champion games challenging. Previously the AI "force increase" was too small to notice while Champions and their allies eventually hit a snowball effect that just allowed you to more or less V-click through any system. I want to use champions but I want it to be just as challenging. Maybe put the champion added difficulty on a variable scale that the player can change?

I strongly disagree.  If a 20% increase in the strength of the AI is too small to notice, then you were going to win anyway, and the Champion isn't going to matter.  But when you're at your limit dealing with the AI at 100% strength, then that Champion is actually going to make it harder to win.  If 100% is your limit, then 120% will kill you, even with the Champion.  That extra 20% strength will overpower the easy boost you get at the beginning.

Although, a Champion-AI response scaler might not be a bad idea... how would it work, though, given that Champion is a player type, rather than a faction or plot?

[Wingflier]

I play with the Special Forces Captain on difficulty 9+, and for me a Champion makes this mode 1000 times easier. 20% larger AI Force pales in comparison to the amount of damage a fully upgraded Spire Battleship Champion can do with Ion Beams from a huge range, not to mention the entire Armada of supply in minor faction ships you receive from the missions and such. My experience has been just the opposite of yours. Champions take an extremely challenging scenario and make it easy.

[Eternaly_Lost]

I play with the Special Forces Captain on difficulty 9+, and for me a Champion makes this mode 1000 times easier. 20% larger AI Force pales in comparison to the amount of damage a fully upgraded Spire Battleship Champion can do with Ion Beams from a huge range, not to mention the entire Armada of supply in minor faction ships you receive from the missions and such. My experience has been just the opposite of yours. Champions take an extremely challenging scenario and make it easy.

I play Fallen Spire on 9+, Champions are useful upto the first or second city shard, then they are nothing more then AI progress free tachyon warheads. Just because one combination is extremely easy, does not mean that another combination is not. 20% larger AI force is a few more Hunter Killers for me, even though for you it nothing more then a few more fighters.

[chemical_art]

I hope that eventually the AI response to champions will be tailored through reacting directly to them, and not through passive percent points to general mechanics.

I've always said it limits tactics in some ways and encourages others.

20% increased AI response is nothing in small maps with less then 100 AIP before engaging AI HW compared to the champion benefit.

20% increased AI response in a fallen spire game is simply a non-starter for me. In no way is a champion worth in effect an extra 80 AIP toward the endgame of Fallen Spire, and that was before nemesis and other things.

[Faulty Logic]

I play Fallen Spire on 9+, Champions are useful upto the first or second city shard, then they are nothing more then AI progress free tachyon warheads.

20% increased AI response in a fallen spire game is simply a non-starter for me. In no way is a champion worth in effect an extra 80 AIP toward the endgame of Fallen Spire, and that was before nemesis and other things.

I find the Champion fleet is quite useful as a fast, heavy-hitting fleet separate from the FS fleet. The economic advantages are also nice throughout. The mod forts fit into your heavy chokepoints quite nicely as well. Finally, the battleship is noticeable even alongside spire dreadnaughts.

But mostly, it gets you to the first city, which is (for me) the hardest part of FS.

[chemical_art]

I play Fallen Spire on 9+, Champions are useful upto the first or second city shard, then they are nothing more then AI progress free tachyon warheads.

20% increased AI response in a fallen spire game is simply a non-starter for me. In no way is a champion worth in effect an extra 80 AIP toward the endgame of Fallen Spire, and that was before nemesis and other things.

I find the Champion fleet is quite useful as a fast, heavy-hitting fleet separate from the FS fleet. The economic advantages are also nice throughout. The mod forts fit into your heavy chokepoints quite nicely as well. Finally, the battleship is noticeable even alongside spire dreadnaughts.

But mostly, it gets you to the first city, which is (for me) the hardest part of FS.

No doubt it is helpful in the early stages.

But late game, the part I consider hardest, an extra 20% difficulty, even for a battleship, is at best, even. All my defeats occur at end game, so I've since tailored my actions to aid late games.

And even then, it still encourages me to game the system and get the battleship before I get the first city.