Balancing Champions

[keith.lamothe]

One of the big things still on my list from before my hiatus-from-AI-War-development is better balancing the champion units you can play with in Ancient Shadows.

Specifically, the consensus as I remember it is that the AI needed an offensive (i.e. "hit the player in the face", as opposed to something that just defends the AI) mechanic whenever the human players have champions.

Is this still what folks want?

Previously I'd heard, and thought about, having response exos or something like that, but I was thinking that we'd be over-using exos.  Now I'm not so sure, as it would be a fairly elegant solution, and the exos themselves could be made very different than the others in composition and perhaps spawn-point or whatever.

Other ideas on what sort of hammer the AI could use to rearrange your face if you use champions?

Thanks for the feedback

[Cyborg]

I would like to see any future changes be tactical in nature, even if you add in some kind of wave or attack mechanic.

For example, some way to destroy/modify nebula would create an additional attack/defend opportunity.

[chemical_art]

I, for one, vehemently, in the strongest possible terms,  any method of having to defend nebulae themselves, even if there was an added benefit.

Exo's may be considered cheese, but I think they best manage to provide the offensive ability of the ai's toolbox.

Maybe in your next expansion you'll come up with a new way the ai can attack the player aside from waves and exo's, and then then AS method could use that mechanic instead.

[Diazo]

Well, thematically the Champion has a different drive type.

What about a champion-hunter that while present in the same system as the champion slowed it's speed to 5 by interfering with the champions unique drive?

Maybe the interference with the drive acts as an attrition effect as well, the champion can't take this hunter-killer unit on solo as the attrition is actually quite nasty, but the champion-hunter is quite weak to other human units as without the attrition effect it is a relatively weak combatant.

Or what about a module-stripper? This could also be added to the fallen spire exo-waves also as those ships are module heavy.

Or if you want something more extreme, a slow, warhead type unit. Sort of like a Zenith Auto-Bomb but if it reaches the player's champion, the champion dies.


Hmm, on re-reading your opening post, I'm actually not clear on what you are looking for.

A unit that just zaps the champion dead?
A unit that limits the Champions range and speed somehow?
A unit that the champion is supposed to engage solo?
A unit that the champion requires support to defeat?

D.

[keith.lamothe]

For example, some way to destroy/modify nebula would create an additional attack/defend opportunity.

You mean a way that the AI could threaten an already completed nebula?  Or a nebula not already started?  Or one in progress?

I, for one, vehemently, in the strongest possible terms,  any method of having to defend nebulae themselves, even if there was an added benefit.

Yea, given that there's no player control over the location of the nebula, the AI being able to trash the post-success reward stuff there would be a bit rough.  Though you always have the option of taking the planet connected to the nebula, and there are some complaints that the bonus from the nebulae is too high.  But ability to defend sattelite worlds isn't really there in a lot of the more intense game setups.  Using them as defense-in-depth, sure, but not really "holding" them for protracted periods of time.

Hmm, on re-reading your opening post, I'm actually not clear on what you are looking for.

A unit that just zaps the champion dead?
A unit that limits the Champions range and speed somehow?
A unit that the champion is supposed to engage solo?
A unit that the champion requires support to defeat?

Actually none of the above really, though I'm open to those if that's what folks think will work best.

What I'm asking about here is some new offensive mechanic that the AI would get in response to the game containing human-controlled champions.  This offensive mechanic need not have any particular relation to champions themselves (in fact I really want to avoid anything that feels like too direct of a counter, because then it feels like a treadmill where the AI just automatically offsets whatever advantage you get), it's just some additional threat you have to deal with in return for having a champion.

For that matter, if there are multiple different kinds of such threats that seem like they'll work well, it could vary/randomize what it actually hits you with from game to game, etc.

This would be different from (and in addition to) the defensive mechanic the AI already gets in response to champion ships: namely, nemesis defenders (that are basically FF-sized AI-controlled champ ships) that guard their Homeworlds, and that get really really nasty if your champion gets really overpoweringly powerful before the AI has anything else to worry about (i.e. while AIP is still really low).

[Radiant Phoenix]

Having looked at Hybrid Hives, it might be cool if the champion player had support structures that the AI would sometimes attack, and that the player would have to defend or rebuild.

--

Something else I was noticing is that the rewards to non-champion players don't seem to scale with the number of champions. Regardless of how many champions are in the game, each command station player gets only one of each modular fortress, only seven ships per friendly faction in a completed nebula, etc.

Some of my friends have complained that the champions are mostly only good on offense.

This gave me an idea:

What if, instead of the command station players getting ships and fortresses directly from the nebulae, the champions would, say, get a 'modular fortress module' that they could use to start construction of a modular fortress somewhere? It would probably be appropriate to say that each champion could only have one modular fortress in place at one time, but they could build any type they had unlocked. The modular fortresses could also scale to the size of hull unlocked. The nebula station foldouts could be associated with modules on the modular fortresses too, kind of like spire shipyards.

[Faulty Logic]

Hmm, exos could work, but, if they were different than the huge battering rams you see coming from miles away they would be more interesting. They should be low (or no) warning, composed entirely of enemy champions, either targeting a random irreplaceable, or going threatfleet. They should love to synchronize with other problems.

Or, in a cruel bit of symmetry, each AI gets an actual champion (one hull size smaller than yours), constantly in threatfleet, respawning, and perpetually haunting your nightmares.

Or, you could have some kind of "dirty tricks" bank, and have the presence of champions contribute. This would be a variety of painful things.

Or, you could nerf champions/nebulae, but I hope that doesn't happen.

For example, some way to destroy/modify nebula would create an additional attack/defend opportunity.

A unit that the champion requires support to defeat?

I strongly oppose these.

[Aeson]

I'm personally against yet another thing which targets random irreplaceables, since current exo-waves and CPAs already do that. I wouldn't mind an AI force that hunts your champion (which should be avoidable, like the special forces), or the perpetual AI threatfleet champion.

Little to no warning attacks of opportunity belong to the threatfleet and hybrid hives; attacks like that which are directed against things which I can't replace are something that wouldn't be bad for the threatfleet and hybrid logic to consider when choosing attack targets, but I don't want the presence of a champion in the game to create an entirely extra force which hunts things which are at best incidental to the existence of the champion.

I also oppose attacks upon or the destruction of nebula facilities, unless some way is provided for the nebulae to contribute to their own defense. The one or two badly damaged space stations left in a nebula that never repair themselves, and the non-respawning nebula faction fleets that go off to patrol player worlds or sacrifice themselves in a once-off attack on an AI world, simply wouldn't do if there were a way for the AI to attack nebulae. In particular, the Dimensional Prison scenario, the Lord of the Colony Ships scenario, and the Ravenous Shadow scenario tend to leave badly damaged stations that would die to a stiff breeze, if the AI were able to hit them.

A unit that the champion requires support to defeat might be interesting, except that champions are supposed to be there for when the player doesn't have a fleet to play with (early game fleet build-ups, or later on in fleet rebuilds).

I could go with giving the AI a champion response squadron of some type (maybe an AI champion or two, or a small force of fleet ships and a starship or two, or something along those lines) which a well-managed champion could defeat but an auto-attacking champion couldn't defeat, and which could be avoided or lured away, since to me that seems more in line with champion play - you put the champion in the game because you wanted the players to have something to do while they don't have anything else to do, and for players who didn't want to have to worry about the empire management. Sort of like the Special Forces, except that it responds to champion presence rather than to human ships on an AI-important world. It might need to be given additional response criteria so that a player can lure the response squadron off somewhere else, though, or it becomes something along the lines of 'never lose the champion in a nebula you don't have a fully neutral or friendly path to', to prevent penalizing champion death during normal nebula play more than it already is.

[Diazo]

Okay.

I think we need to step back and take a broader look at this.

By that I mean these questions need to be answered:

Game start, level 1 Champion -> What size of AI forces should this be able to take on?
After nebula 1?
After Nebula 3?
After nebula 9?

I'm thinking the AI's response should scale based on nebula's won personally, rather then AIP or gametime. The AIs response is going to be pretty focused on killing the champion (in my mind anyway).

Then, how does the champion take on the AI forces? A big FF and lots of DPS. So, the AI needs some counter that is specific to the champion, against those. Preferable not the "just throw a Golem at it" tactic that exo-waves use.

What about a mobile black hole machine of some sort? It chases the target, in this case the champion, and once it is in the same system it prevents it from warping out after a short period.

If the champion can defeat the AI forces in he system regardless, this does not do much, but if it can't then the AI gets to kill the champion. So the player would be engaged on the tactical level to let the mobile black hole machine catch up in the system of the players choice. It would need a flag to never enter a system with a human command station or something though.

I'm thinking this is really a thread about opening up new tricks for the AI at this point. If the goal is just to allow the AI to kill the champion, throw an exo-wave at it.

If you want to give the AI new tricks, the biggest thing at this point is to give it some sort of warp point denial or restrict the players freedom to move around the galaxy map somehow.

Maybe gravity "zones" or "wall"? Zones being a map feature, need to upgrade your engines somehow to move across zone, wall being an AI structure of some sort that needs to be destroyed to allow travel through a warp point.

Well. have a wall of text.

If I made a coherent point in there I hope it is a good one, at this point I'm really brainstorming odd ideas that I can't think of a direct equivalent in the game already.

D.

[Eternaly_Lost]

One thing that I would like to see adjusted somehow, is that Champions become just as worthless as None-spire fleet ship around the third Spire city and there is nothing you can really do about it. Even the top level ship just dies when an Exowave shows up and I tend to find them more useful in the fact that they can release a non-AIP Tachyon pulse more then anything after that point. They just can't survive long enough to do anything worthwhile without being a part of the main Spire Fleet at that point.

I would really like to see some sort of City granted modules for Champions that would make them still worthwhile well you are doing the whole Fallen Spire Campain. And it should be fairly easy to justify lore wise.

As the Spire get more and more facilities online, they can design and grant more powerful additions to champion. Due to the ship's design, it the only one that can mount these modules or something along those lines.

Well Nebula might become too easy with these new modules. I personally think you should look at it like this,  you are basically trading an easier time in Nebula for AIs that are sending waves of Hunter-Killers at you. Your champion might be able to just walk into any nebula and take it out, but outside your find Hunter-Killers chasing you rather then fighters.

[Hearteater]

Random possibility:

Each nebula mission completed gives the AI a new toy.  This toy isn't just a copy of the same ships the human gets.  It may not even be a ship at all.  It may be a replaceable unit that exists for the rest of the game, on AI systems of all sorts and even in waves.  Or maybe the AI only gets a limited number of them.

Consider the Dyson Sphere mission.  When you complete it you get irreplaceable Gatlings.  The AI gets something too.  Just a few of them (maybe 1 to 5), and they only work once.  Gatling Bombs.  Imagine a Hive Golem full of Gatlings.  Now imagine it is stealthed.  But it only works once.  It flies around at random until it enters a human controlled system, and then it explodes releasing all its Gatlings (lets say Diff1*Diff2*2).  If you can find it, you can destroy it earlier (although destroying it causes still causes it to release its gatlings).  Good thing the Gatlings have a limited life span and can't travel through worm holes.  But the system they get released in, yeah, that's probably not going to look as pretty afterwords.

Apply a similar threat to other nebula.  For true overkill, design three threats per nebula and randomly pick one of the three.

[Aeson]

I like the idea of the mobile black hole machine, although I think if it goes in it should be more along the lines of a Gravity Ripper-style wormhole denial than a global wormhole denial (i.e., ships hit by shots from the mobile black hole machine cannot pass through wormholes for some period of time), assuming that that is feasible and not too much work, since that allows a player directly controlling a champion to attempt to dodge the effect instead of forcing a fight. I also like the idea of granting bonuses to the AI when players completing nebulae.

Perhaps combine the two ideas? The AI gets some kind of response squadron for use against the champion, and completing nebula scenarios grants the AI a bonus which can strengthen the response squadron (mobile Orbital Mass Driver, mobile Black Hole Machine, a champion-type ship or two of its own) or which does something else (Hearteater's Gatling Carrier, perhaps an immobile Devourer Golem-style fortification at a core/home world). Possibly, with mobile rewards (Gatling Carrier, mobile Orbital Mass Driver, mobile Black Hole Machine, champion-type ships), have it be randomized as to whether it goes to the champion hunting squadron or towards some kind of retaliatory strike.

If you do end up creating a mobile black hole machine of any type, I suggest you call it an Interdictor.

[Histidine]

Strongly oppose attacks on the nebulae. Once I've done a sidequest (especially if I had to deepstrike to do so), I don't to have to worry about it any longer.
Not in favor of a champion exo. It's yet another "pull back whole fleet 3 minutes before IMPENDING DOOM and wait it out" mechanic (CPAs and all the other exo sources).

In favor of response squadron (uses nemesis champions for thematic flavor, natch). Could even allow the response squadron to attack player territory as well as chasing the champion.

Another suggestion: Give Nemeses hybrid hive-like behavior that escalates as nebula are completed.


One more thing that needs addressing WRT champions: They act as complete fleet replacements. I actually find it nice to have an infinitely reusable Raid Starship, but it's not really balanced.

I'd like something that encourages use of champion alongside the regular fleet. Some more abilities (active or passive) that act as area/global buffs would be good, I think. Firepower, armor. I'd even give the champion an MRS module.

[LaughingThesaurus]

Idea:

Something exo-like that strikes wherever the champion is hiding. It has the following unique traits.
- It comes from the borders rather than wormholes, and functions as free threat. It's ordered to kill the champ first, and then it goes off and does whatever.
- A beacon warps in through each wormhole. Each one emits a gravity effect that targets only the champion.
- This ambush may contain something else according to what your deepest darkest desires are... and scales up in relative danger when the champion is on a friendly planet, or is otherwise protected by enough allied firepower.
Edit: These attacks may become more frequent as nebula are completed, but may not interrupt nebula missions. They CAN attack while a champ is hiding inside of a completed nebula.

in addition, possibly...
- When a nebula is completed, the AI gets to immediately build special weapons on some of its planets. These can be more powerful guard posts that already exist, upgrading a planet's level, brutal picks (only for, say, mark III worlds) or so on. These can also be anti-champion weapons, champion alert posts, or things designed around the tech found in the nebula that was completed.
- Maybe allow for an AI plot or minor faction option that allows the AI to use shadow drives to slip into nebula while the mission is active, coming in out of the borders of the nebula and attacking anything it sees. This should strictly, 100%, absolutely be optional, and should be terminated after a successful nebula.

[KDR_11k]

I'd rather see a cost to Champions than an AI response. Of course resources can easily be gathered while caps are the real constraint in AI War so it would probably have to impact your ship caps in some way. Maybe add a serious K cost to unlocking the champion in the first place? That way it would indirectly impact your ship caps without being yet another special rule that people have to learn. If you're worried about scaling add a K cost to the hull upgrades as well.

Champion-only players would not have to pay this cost I guess.