Author Topic: balance thoughts for the Grande Polish  (Read 7109 times)

Offline superking

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balance thoughts for the Grande Polish
« on: December 04, 2010, 09:05:06 am »
my thoughts, mostly on content added before LoTS as I havnt played with those ships enough to comment. I have issues with the balancing neinzul ships in general, but that will be another, probably much longer post another day.. for now just the vulture because I unlocked it via an ARS recently and was appalled  :P


thought on harvesters- with 3000 armour they are still equally resistant to most fleetships, not to mention the weedy weapons of cloaked raidery types. If they had little or no armour (more HP to compensate) then such ships would be effective again... alot of ships seem to have lots of armour for no good reason and fleetship performance suffers as result.

grenade launcher with 100k HP and 4000 armour = near unkillable.. with 8k HP and 4000 armour it still had the equivalent HP of 40k vs most attacks, now it has the equivalent of 500k..HP @ 12k (MK I) would probably be a good compromise.

zenith mirror is REALLY crap now it has armour instead of shields (equivalent of 7000 HP at MK I), it needs way more HP or an armour boost to be remotely viable

the bulletproof fighter has 79 armour, 89 shipcap.. perhaps round that too 100 armour/shipcap (or even a higher value of armour, they ARE bullet proof) and alter their performance in other ways (speed, cost).

microfighter needs more than 250 armour peircing to do any kind of damage to bombers (or anything), atm it is probably the most terrible fleetship, incomparably worse than fighters.

the spacetank has lost all of its character, its just a slower and more fragile version of the bomber now it has only 500 armour and 40k HP @ MK I.

teleport raider is utterly ineffective against ANYTHING except polycrystal, doing the minimal 20% damage of its very weak attack against even the tiny armour of fighters/frigates of the same MK.

the raptors cost (400 metal, 80 crystal) feels too high for a unit with 11k HP, compared to spaceplanes they are not remotely economical. also, they would function better/make more sense if they had a retreat range closer to their max range (ie, 10k retreat range vs 12k weapon range, currently it is 5K)

autobomb has a bonus against polycrystal, but paraxodically no armour peircing (which makes it considerably less effective than it was in 3.0 where it would ignore shields) imo, armour peircing equal to attack and no bonus vs polycystal would round it out better and lead to less of the '300 autobombs attacking somthing heavily armoured and doing almost no damage' thing that can happen on FRD

armour ships are ridiculous atm (280k Hp & 3000 armour at MK I, which vs attacks that cannot peirce armour is the equvalent of over a million HP each- they cost 300 crystal.) hyper cost effective!

vultures still suck at finishing off high HP targets, consider eg. a bomber MK I on 20% HP. the MK I vulture inflicts a grand total of 810 damage, with 310 getting through the armour; an MK I fighter will inflict about 20x more damage. they also cost way too much (half the price of an MK I fighter) to be worth spamming with the certainty that they will self-die.

autocannon minimods are terribad against almost everything (4 damage). the few units they have a bonus against often have armour, the bonuses are still insufficent to make them able to penetrate- ie, ultra heavy bonus 45x results in a total attack of 180 for an MK I autocannon vs ultraheavy, which would do 30 damage if the target has just 150 armour. these have yet to receive compensation for losing than 8x groupboost they used to get in swarms.

snipers are still weak with a shipcap of 19 & 20k health.. I can think of no situation that would make me want to choose them as a starting unit. they havnt got ANY staying power, so their DPS/shipcap should be good.. but it isnt. imo, they would be OK with a shipcap of like 50.

this is totally just me, but the vorticular cutlass should become a Ram ammo type, lose all of its damage bonuses against fleetships and become a specialised anti structure/starship unit

Offline Sunshine!

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Re: balance thoughts for the Grande Polish
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2010, 12:26:35 pm »
Re-define tank.  Give tanks higher damage, slightly bigger range (4000-5000?), a bit more speed, good against mainstay "main combat ships and flagship line" so good against medium, composite, heavy armor types, ignore decent portion of armor.  Make them a decent counter to things that are currently hard to counter but that are hardcore direct combat ships (and not flitty little things like fighters), like MLRS, Hybrids, Bulletproofs, and I don't remember what composite is.  What I do know is Heavy and Medium armor types tend to have few counters in the fleetships, composite is the same way but pretty rare so it's less of an issue.

Make autocannons fire faster, give them 3x multishot or something so it looks like they actually have autocannons.  I don't know how much of a strain that'll put on the game though when there's 500 of them out there.  Maybe double each of their bonuses as well, and double their raw damage, so that they're still terrible against armored targets they don't have a bonus against, but actually have a chance of dealing with targets they're good against while still allowing for the armor of those targets to come into play (armor piercing should be a luxury, not a standard).

Let's brainstorm a bit about what role microfighters SHOULD play in a fleet.  They're cloaker defense, as is, so they should be good against minipods, raptors, and space planes, among other things.  This would mean higher speed to at least beat AI space planes by 10 (space planes have a speed of 50 I think?  So then Tachyons should have a speed of at least 30, because player ships actually travel at x2 speed).  That should give them a decent spread of bonuses so that they're good against things other than just cloakers, and won't relegate them to being just "Waste of resources".  Minipods are swarmer, Raptors are ultralight, eyebots are polycrystal, don't remember planes or etherjets.  No armor piercing for microfighters because cloakers don't have armor, but again the bonuses should give them a decent output against lightly/medium armored targets in their bonus range.

Bulletproof fighters are fine, was just playing with them about a week ago and they act like another cap of basic fighters, which are quite good right now (basic fighters should probably be toned down a little, or bombers/missile frigates toned up, but I'm worried slightly about triangle ship power creep).

In the immunities thread I posted solutions to teleport raiders and vorticular cutlasses (here: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,7647.15.html )

Mirrors, grenade launchers, vultures, armor ships, I don't know anything about.

Giving autobombs armor piercing would make them way too powerful.  They're AOE, and as a result gib tons of stuff at once (seriously, it's ridiculous, only frigates survive because they hardcounter by being AOE immune), and giving them armor piercing would only make that worse, especially when I'm spitting out 10,000 of them an hour (at least).

I agree that raptors should cost less and take less time to build, their current role is as distraction, and they're currently a very lightly armed and armored distraction, two things that don't go well with "expensive".  Remove cloaking because it's not really necessary, they're not powerful enough to make a surgical strike against a target, and it will make tracking them on player planets much less annoying, especially given their range and propensity to retreat.

Snipers are always going to be one of those things that's hard to balance.  They shouldn't have staying power because that's not what they're supposed to do.  They and Sentinel Frigates are also completely redundant (and useless) right now.

Suggest Sentinel Frigates become mobile defensive stations, or mini-fortresses.  That way their tachyon emissions and advanced warp sensors actually have a use.  Higher energy cost, localized gravity turret (at half effectiveness of a gravity turret of same mark), mid-range high-damage low multishot.  Not effective against a giant swarm, but effective at holding off a small force of mid-range attack vessels, such as fighters or MLRS.  (Light, medium, composite bonuses?  5x laser multishot, +2 multishot per mark level above 1?)

All I've got time for right now.


Offline Lancefighter

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Re: balance thoughts for the Grande Polish
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2010, 02:32:53 pm »
autobombs dont need armor pierce.. they do enough damage to polycrystal as it is.

Fighters, on the other hand, take forever to kill. Not to mention electric bombers...
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Offline superking

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Re: balance thoughts for the Grande Polish
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2010, 07:20:52 am »
autobombs dont need armor pierce.. they do enough damage to polycrystal as it is.

Fighters, on the other hand, take forever to kill. Not to mention electric bombers...

...

I'm getting that 'bro didn't read' feeling  :)

Quote
imo, armour peircing equal to attack and no bonus vs polycystal would round it out better and lead to less of the '300 autobombs attacking somthing heavily armoured and doing almost no damage' thing that can happen on FRD

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: balance thoughts for the Grande Polish
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2010, 01:46:43 pm »
Sorry.. I .. thought I read it :\
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Offline Suzera

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Re: balance thoughts for the Grande Polish
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2010, 02:37:54 pm »
Knowledge and energy are scare. Even underpowered ships would get more use if it wasn't for that.

Here's my thoughts. I'm leaving out the ships that have situational niches that I generally wouldn't use with my strategy, as well as the spire ships which I still haven't used much from the following listing. This is just a list ships that are pretty much entirely outclassed by triangles, and their replacement ships that are the MRLS, Space Tank and Bulletproof Fighter. There are ships besides these I think are underpowered and generally never use, but those have niches that aren't really filled by other things.

Autocannon minipods. They're pretty terrible. Candidate for the worst ship in the game.

Raiders are too expensive. They're more expensive and flimsier than fighters per ship cap, they are far weaker than bombers due to blowing up so fast per ship cap. Large resource drain. If you don't care how long the game takes you don't really notice because you just take all the time you need anyway. Good for the AI though because they don't have a resource cost, doubly so from the significant turret bonus which only works against humans. I'd rather have a second set of fighters or a second set of bombers as human against the AI though, whichever way they're getting used. I guess they didn't get any love after the shields -> armor change which is why they were so good (their range was enough to break bomber shields and thus they had no counters) and still worth their resource cost back in late 1.0 and early 2.0.

Planes take too much power. They have a 2x triangle ship cap and are under fighter strength per ship cap (except they're pretty good at taking down AI Eyes), but take three times as much power. That's a huge drain and I would much rather unlock a second set of standard fighters. Again, if you don't care how long the game takes, you don't notice the power and thus resource drain as much. Good for the AI though because they don't have to worry about power. A little pricey in build cost as well, but it's more handleable than raiders. Since their main utility over default ships would be taking down AI Eyes, which is the only time you can't just bring in all your high power stuff to kill EVERYTHING, their high ship cap/swarm thing kind of puts them at odds with that as another mark against them.

Teleport units are hard to use effectively on offense because they won't stay with the group.

Telestations are way too easy to blow up for their cost and ship cap to use on defense against bombers, which they even have a bonus against so they can do more than scratch the paint. They're way too easily popped by anything else.

Teleraiders are also mostly outclassed by fighters, but at least are numerous enough that bombers waste a lot of damage blowing them up before the teleraiders wear the bombers down. Cheapness keeps them at least somewhat effective. I'd still baaarely want a second set of regular fighters even if just for home defense. Barely. For general useage though, a second ship cap of fighters would be far better.

Acid sprayers have fearsome looking multipliers, but in the end up mostly being weak fighters. There are better picks against polycrystal and neutron isn't that ubiquitous.

Raptors are really fast and easy to explode frigates with much worse damage modifiers. The speed usually isn't that big of an advantage to offset having 1/6 the hp of a frigate for humans. It makes them mostly a minor annoyance even when the AI has them.

Microfighters are, well, weak fighters, even with a ship cap of them vs a ship cap of standard fighter. I'd still rather unlock a second set standard fighters because microfighter AP doesn't keep up with bombers, and the ship cap total raw dps isn't anywhere near as high. They probably need to get hit with the same rebalance as standard fighters did as well as putting their AP in line with regular fighters. If they were more like bulletproofs and were Fighters+detectors they would be much higher on the pick list, possibly on par with the MRLS, but not quite to FFB or Space Tank levels, but certainly above bulletproofs. If you want to keep them swarmy, just do half the raw damage of standard fighters, half the hp of standard fighters, half the cost, half the power, and twice the ship cap, but leave the AP at standard fighter levels per mk because bomber killing is job #1 for fighters.

Claws, shredders and cutlasses are too easy to blow up, and too hard to use with high K:D superior firepower fleet blobbing unless you like extended micro sessions. I'd much rather have a second ship cap of standard fighters as a human. For the AI they're ok because they get under force fields and ignore tractor beams, but neither of those are particularly compelling in a ship that can't readily blow up AI Eyes or other similar features for a human player. They also are all a little bit on the pricey side for ships that blow up all the time. Claws in particular suffer from an abysmally low ship cap damage rate. Shredders probably suffer from difficulty skew, being far better on lower difficulties where they can get to their replication point, and far worse on higher difficulties where they blow up all the time.  Similar for vampire claws. Their health per mk could probably stand to scale better.

Z Chameleons are entirely and severely outclassed by regular bombers as far as ship cap total power goes. Chameleons probably need to at least be bomber levels of power to be a Bomber+ like bulletproof fighters, where I would at least like them as a third ship cap of bombers(after tanks, which I would take before bombers even). Right now they really only get a bonus against force fields and AI Eyes, but Tanks are already Bombers+Fighters On Top, and Z Elec bombers are better too (but worse than regular bombers). They have less damage, less health, less armor and far worse multipliers than bombers. Cloaking before they fire if they stay still doesn't really make up for any of that, even for the AI. It would be better if they were just full cloaking so they could approach AI Eyes better without triggering the system, and that alone might make me pick them above Space Tanks if they were on par with regular bombers in every other way. They might even end up on my favorite ship list because I really hate AI Eyes.

Z Elec Bombers are also quite outclassed by regular bombers. They may be better individually, but ship cap for ship cap, bombers win easy. Tanks are hands down a far superior pick. The only things Elec Bombers have going for them is that the AI has ship minimums in waves that multiply their effectiveness in AI hands, and they are some form of bomber.

Z Mirrors are decent AI ships but terrible human ships. Why bother getting a ship that has to be blown up in order to damage things when I could instead get a ship that has far more permanence and can blow up many things without being blown up itself? For the AI this is ok because it is a forced attrition, so there is at least some cost to humans going through systems (assuming the human ships will blow up in a shot or two vs the mirror, which may or may not even happen) but as a human ship it is a pretty terrible pick from an overall effectiveness standpoint. They're also pricey for something that should be exploding as often as autobombs to be really useful. If they were dirt cheap to where they could be used as the suicide units they beg to be used as, that would work better.

Quote from: superking
the bulletproof fighter has 79 armour, 89 shipcap.. perhaps round that too 100 armour/shipcap (or even a higher value of armour, they ARE bullet proof) and alter their performance in other ways (speed, cost).
Bulletproofs are currently on my "potentially used" list mainly because they are standard fighters+. Adding armor to them seems a bit too powerful. A reduction in speed isn't too big a deal unless they go below missile frigates. Extra cost could give them the current Raider problem if there's not a comparable survival increase, and just make it another ship to not pick instead of Tanks, FFBs or MRLS.

Quote from: superking
the spacetank has lost all of its character, its just a slower and more fragile version of the bomber now it has only 500 armour and 40k HP @ MK I.
When did this happen? In my game today tanks still have as much hp and armor as bombers, more dps, and a bonus against both polycrystal (bombers) and artillery (frigates).

Quote from: superking
armour ships are ridiculous atm (280k Hp & 3000 armour at MK I, which vs attacks that cannot peirce armour is the equvalent of over a million HP each- they cost 300 crystal.) hyper cost effective!
Only if things shoot them. Bomber multipliers get over the armor amount easily too. They're really mostly AI ships, but they can cover for other ships some because several things like to shoot ultra-heavy armor type for some reason, and thus they act as sort of an MMO paradigm tank.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 02:51:26 pm by Suzera »

Offline Vinraith

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Re: balance thoughts for the Grande Polish
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2010, 02:53:48 pm »
Knowledge and energy are scare. Even underpowered ships would get more use if it wasn't for that.

In fairness Suzera, that's more an artifact of the way you play the game than of the game itself. Speaking as someone that's usually taking 20-25 planets on an 80 planet map I don't find either of those to be particularly scarce, and I very much do use "underpowered" ships because I can afford to do so.

You also seem to be drastically undervaluing defense in some of your unit evaluations, at least from my (radically different, obviously) experience. Shredders in particular are practically a single-unit wormhole defense force unto themselves (leave a "seed" of about a hundred at any hostile wormhole in your territory and soon you'll have a thousand and the system will be impenetrable), the only thing that keeps them from being insanely overpowered in this respect is their energy cost.

Offline Suzera

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Re: balance thoughts for the Grande Polish
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2010, 03:25:08 pm »
They blow up too fast even for wormhole defense in my games. Turrets are the defense I use because they're much more suited for it, and none of those are in ARSes. There's tens of thousands of knowledge in turrets to unlock. I am aiming at about 12-14 economy planets right now and even with that many and the shield generator planets being knowledge raided before abandonment, I am still very very far away from teching anything besides default ships (including turrets, bases etc), MRLS, Tank, FFB or maybe bulletproofs.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 03:32:33 pm by Suzera »

Offline Vinraith

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Re: balance thoughts for the Grande Polish
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2010, 03:28:36 pm »
They blow up too fast even for wormhole defense in my games. Turrets are the defense I use because they're much more suited for it, and none of those are in ARSes. There's tens of thousands of knowledge in turrets to unlock.

Interesting. I certainly use them in conjunction with turrets (especially tractors since shredders are so slow) but I find that in most circumstances their rate of reproduction outclasses their rate of death. Then again we are coming at this from two very different perspectives, since I think half the fun of the game is grabbing ARS's and seeing what pops up as a result.

Offline Suzera

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Re: balance thoughts for the Grande Polish
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2010, 03:36:43 pm »
I edited a few more things into that post you might not have read yet, just in case.

If it doesn't blow up bombers, or doesn't do significant area damage, or doesn't specifically blow up something that blows up tractor turrets the AI has that particular game, I generally don't unlock tech for defense. Shredders don't really fit any of those categories. I'll sometimes unlock basic turrets mk 2 for defending power plants against cutlasses and such because they're so darn cheap knowledgewise to tech though, and it keeps the precious power cost down vs using mk 1.

In difficulty 7, shredders are ok among the subpar ships, but in 8 they are relatively more useless because they don't get nearly the time to replicate (in addition to poor damage) in my opinion.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 03:47:11 pm by Suzera »

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: balance thoughts for the Grande Polish
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2010, 03:47:01 pm »
Just throwing this out there, but in the games I play, I seem to have a giant vacuum of crystal while Metal tends to hit the max limit first.  Is this by design? 

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Offline Suzera

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Re: balance thoughts for the Grande Polish
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2010, 03:49:35 pm »
Just throwing this out there, but in the games I play, I seem to have a giant vacuum of crystal while Metal tends to hit the max limit first.  Is this by design? 

King

I get that too but the opposite. Most of the better ships tend to use metal. Bomber starships? 10:1 metal. Flagship line? 3:1. Bombers? Tanks? MRLS? Mostly metal, all metal, more metal than crystal unlike the frigate it replaces which is the opposite. I'm not sure if it was intentional. On the flip side, turrets use loads of crystal (except standard turrets which are all metal), so it's more scarce before you have established your defense planet, and for a bit after you get hit with multi-thousand ship waves that blow up hundreds of turrets.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 03:54:29 pm by Suzera »

Offline superking

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Re: balance thoughts for the Grande Polish
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2010, 05:04:42 pm »
Raiders are too expensive. They're more expensive and flimsier than fighters per ship cap, they are far weaker than bombers due to blowing up so fast per ship cap. Large resource drain.

agree

Planes take too much power. They have a 2x triangle ship cap and are under fighter strength per ship cap (except they're pretty good at taking down AI Eyes), but take three times as much power.

dissagree, spaceplanes are powerful with their cloak, high shipcap, radar dampening and decent dps, energy cost is a good way balance them.

Teleport units are hard to use effectively on offense because they won't stay with the group.

Telestations are way too easy to blow up for their cost and ship cap to use on defense against bombers, which they even have a bonus against so they can do more than scratch the paint. They're way too easily popped by anything else.

it sounds like you are trying to use them in the same ctrl group as regular units... user error bro

Claws, shredders and cutlasses... For the AI they're ok because they get under force fields and ignore tractor beams, but neither of those are particularly compelling in a ship that can't readily blow up AI Eyes or other similar features for a human player.

agree with this specific bit

Z Chameleons

a general rethink of these would be cool, i think everyone would agree the current weak bomber'concept dosnt work well with the 'ambusher' ability (bombers are aggressive units, cloaking while stationary is *mostly* defensive.)

Z Elec Bombers

I think these need different bonuses.. very high bonuses against starship & structual types ideally, or use in deep strikes vs tough targets. the polycrystal bonus seems out of place.

Z Mirrors...

are broken and extremely fragile atm.

@ shredders, I like them as is

Offline Suzera

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Re: balance thoughts for the Grande Polish
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2010, 05:17:45 pm »
Teleport units are hard to use effectively on offense because they won't stay with the group.

Telestations are way too easy to blow up for their cost and ship cap to use on defense against bombers, which they even have a bonus against so they can do more than scratch the paint. They're way too easily popped by anything else.

it sounds like you are trying to use them in the same ctrl group as regular units... user error bro

The micromanagement hassle on EVERY. SINGLE. MOVE ORDER. alone is almost worth not using them for, not to bring in the high ship cost for such fragile units. Certainly not something that gets near a top 10 pick when I can do even better with half of the other different units, most of which I still wouldn't use much if at all right now. If they stagger teleported with group move enabled they would be far more useable without being such a huge uncompromising hassle. That sounds like a significant coding hassle and significant extra cpu usage though.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 05:43:09 pm by Suzera »

Offline superking

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Re: balance thoughts for the Grande Polish
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2010, 05:43:40 pm »
lol