Balance Complexity

[TechSY730]

I have just realized how tough a job you guys have when it comes to balancing this game.

Here are some of the factors you have to consider.

General:
Ship cost
Ship cap
Build time
Income of the player
If it is from the AI, its rarity and conditions to spawn
If it is not buildable directly, how easy is it to get
Speed (if mobile)
Range (if armed)
Buffs to allies
Nerfs to enemies
Special properties (cloaking, etc.)

Offense:
Base damage
Fire rate
Armor piercing
Defensive immunities (ff immunity, radar dampening immunity, etc.)
Hull Bonuses
DPS (in the best case)
DPS (in the average case)
DPS (in the case with no bonuses)
Shot type
Special properties (paralysis, armor rotting, etc.)
Target restrictions

Defense:
HP
Armor
Hull type
Offensive immunities (immunity to missile ammo, immunity to dark matter ammo, etc)
Special properties (radar dampening, etc.)

And a note about hull types and hull type bonus. When assessing the usefulness of the bonuses/penalties a ship has you must consider:
Total number of bonuses
Total number of penalties
The value of the multipliers
How many ships have a certain hull type that the multiplier in question
The average rarity of ships for each hull type
The average threat/danger of ships for each hull type
The average toughness of ships for each hull type
The average "need to kill" of ships for each hull type
Typical special properties of ships for each hull type

And I am sure I am missing some stuff from each section.

I now realize how difficult your job is to get all of this working together decently, and how our "simple" balance requests aren't as simple as we might think sometimes.

Just as a note, if you (a player) thinks that this level of complexity is unmanageably absurd for both players and developers, then AI war is not the game for you.

EDIT: I would also like to use this thread as an opportunity to discuss the current level of complexity in the game. Things like "it's complicated, but it can worked through" or "I know that AI war is supposed to be complex, but the devs may have taken it too far recently and gotten in over thier heads".

[BobTheJanitor]

Just as a note, if you (a player) thinks that this level of complexity is unmanageably absurd for both players and developers, then AI war is not the game for you.

I wouldn't say that for sure. You can always play on lower difficulties and still get plenty of fun out of blobbing ships together. But yeah, for the deeper game it does take a certain type of person who can happily spend hours poring over a spreadsheet full of statistics and feel giddy about it. (guilty)

[Echo35]

Just as a note, if you (a player) thinks that this level of complexity is unmanageably absurd for both players and developers, then AI war is not the game for you.

I wouldn't say that for sure. You can always play on lower difficulties and still get plenty of fun out of blobbing ships together. But yeah, for the deeper game it does take a certain type of person who can happily spend hours poring over a spreadsheet full of statistics and feel giddy about it. (guilty)

Grognards unite! High fives!

[TechSY730]

Okay, I gotta ask. How do you (Chris and Kieth) keep up with all of this? Balancing this game with that much going on seems almost insurmountable to me. 

[BobTheJanitor]

I'm going to guess a combination of rolling dice, throwing darts at an excel file while blindfolded, and consulting a voodoo priest. Am I right? 

[TechSY730]

I'm going to guess a combination of rolling dice, throwing darts at an excel file while blindfolded, and consulting a voodoo priest. Am I right? 

Well, that certainly seems to be in part the balance strategy of Arc System Works (makers of cult classics such as BlazBlue and GuiltyGear). From what I have heard from expert players, GuiltyGear XX Accent Core, if you just looked at the change list, should not of been balanced. Yet somehow, it was. In other words, it was balanced by a freak accident.

Thankfully, they seem to be learning. Their newest series, BlazBlue, they are taking a smarter approach.
You could say that they are now using some sort of genetic algorithm, using the darts and voodoo only as the random member and mutation generation process. 

[Zeba]

Okay, I gotta ask. How do you (Chris and Kieth) keep up with all of this? Balancing this game with that much going on seems almost insurmountable to me. 

If he properly documented his ship stats and how they effect each other when development first started on the game then additional changes should be fairly easy to impliment in relation to the rest of the game. It's all about how you lay the groundwork tbh.

[Echo35]

I'm going to guess a combination of rolling dice, throwing darts at an excel file while blindfolded, and consulting a voodoo priest. Am I right? 

Well, that certainly seems to be in part the balance strategy of Arc System Works (makers of cult classics such as BlazBlue and GuiltyGear). From what I have heard from expert players, GuiltyGear XX Accent Core, if you just looked at the change list, should not of been balanced. Yet somehow, it was. In other words, it was balanced by a freak accident.

Thankfully, they seem to be learning. Their newest series, BlazBlue, they are taking a smarter approach.
You could say that they are now using some sort of genetic algorithm, using the darts and voodoo only as the random member and mutation generation process. 

BlazBlue tries to be balanced by virtue of everyone being broken

[Draco18s]

BlazBlue tries to be balanced by virtue of everyone being broken

Balance and diversity are inversely proportional.

AI War has a lot of stats that are considered when designing units, and its true, its hard work.

Keith's heard a little about a project I'm working on that is (attempting) to do all of it automagically.  (Disclaimer: not for AI War, although influenced by)

[Oralordos]

I know that the developers of Achron (link in sig) balance using an algorithm. It seems to be working pretty well too.

[Draco18s]

I know that the developers of Achron (link in sig) balance using an algorithm. It seems to be working pretty well too.

I'm waiting for that game so bad.

[TechSY730]

How on earth do you get a good algorithm to find good balance? I'm pretty sure that it is a NP-hard problem.

I can see using an algorithm to help tweak a close to balanced system though; that seems feasible.

[Draco18s]

How on earth do you get a good algorithm to find good balance? I'm pretty sure that it is a NP-hard problem.

I can see using an algorithm to help tweak a close to balanced system though; that seems feasible.

I don't know about Achron, but what I'm doing is having the units fight each other and determine a winner.  Winner is now better than the other unit by %remaining_health.

Repeat for "all" unit pairs.

(What my program does is attempt to locate a triangle set, so it doesn't need to do all pairs, just enough pairs)

[RCIX]

BlazBlue tries to be balanced by virtue of everyone being broken

Balance and diversity are inversely proportional.

AI War has a lot of stats that are considered when designing units, and its true, its hard work.

Keith's heard a little about a project I'm working on that is (attempting) to do all of it automagically.  (Disclaimer: not for AI War, although influenced by)

Not necessarily; the key is contextual power. That is, abilities or units that are more powerful in some situations than others.

[TechSY730]

How on earth do you get a good algorithm to find good balance? I'm pretty sure that it is a NP-hard problem.

I can see using an algorithm to help tweak a close to balanced system though; that seems feasible.

I don't know about Achron, but what I'm doing is having the units fight each other and determine a winner.  Winner is now better than the other unit by %remaining_health.

Repeat for "all" unit pairs.

(What my program does is attempt to locate a triangle set, so it doesn't need to do all pairs, just enough pairs)

That algorithm is a good way to TEST balance. It does not give what needs to be tweaked to make an under-performing unit useful, or how to bring an overpowered unit reasonable. In other words, it tests, not finds (alternatively, solves for) balance.