Author Topic: Request for details on "Balance: Another pass on champion modules"  (Read 3977 times)

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Request for details on "Balance: Another pass on champion modules"
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2012, 05:38:51 pm »
I would honestly rather something like the old Angelwing - You could rebuild modules given time, even destroyed ones. You also get 5 nostalgia points if you get that reference without looking it up. (additionally, depending on how you look at it - is it a 'shield module' on the outside of a ship that must be destroyed before it breaks?, or merely the representation of a internal shield projection device? I tend to see them more as a representation of an internal system, and thus should never die.. hm coming to think of it.. little bit more later)

Give modules a time to build or whatever, without a real m/c cost. Let the shield rebuild itself, given like two minutes of time. That sounds like a good amount of time. You could even disable rebuilding if the ship takes damage at all? Possibly even unless the ship is stationary. I dunno. Think of some stupid restriction and ill probably support it. Unless it requires engineers. Or supply. :p


On my 'shield modules are a representation of an internal system' - Would it be possible to modify shields such that they dont die? They would certainly bottom out at 0hp (or maybe 1, i guess?) and at that point it stops taking damage instead of the primary ship.
Possibly something along the lines of "is a forcefield when above x hp"(consider also the decoy drone effect maybe)? In this case, shields would regenerate up to x hp, and then start defending their primary ship again.

Minor problems with this: It makes riot starships incredibly squishy. At the moment their main defense is actually in that their shields rebuild really quickly. No ship is now able to rebuild forcefields repeatedly instantly with engineer support, as the shields would end up at 0(1?) hp and not regenerate because of that 'all forcefields take damage' mechanic. This may be a good thing, I am not sure - How do people feel about shields being mostly unable to regenerate unless completely out of combat?(edit: But without engineers)

Benefits with this: mostly the above as related to nebula scenarios - The idea is that a forcefield never actually dies anymore, so instead of rebuilding like 'modules', it becomes basically useless until it is taken out of combat to heal. This might actually end up being beneficial - It makes basically all shields act the same way the Championship's does.

Some other thoughts I came up with while pondering this - Should there be possibly two sets of forcefields for mobile ships? For instance a "projected forcefield", that acts like their current ones, and a "personal shield", that protects against more damage but only to that unit. This would possibly solve some of the issues I have with the champion in nebulas.. Yea I dunno where I am going with this either.
edit; Oh look, another 500 words on the matter. Why cant I write this well for pointless uni assignments?
edit; i also keep calling the nebula stuff 'spire' stuf for some reason
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 06:04:23 pm by Lancefighter »
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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Request for details on "Balance: Another pass on champion modules"
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2012, 06:00:52 pm »
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How do people feel about shields being mostly unable to regenerate unless completely out of combat?
Strongly in favor. I also support shield mortality within nebulae.
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Offline dotjd

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Re: Request for details on "Balance: Another pass on champion modules"
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2012, 06:09:00 pm »
Idea: if shields fall to 0, put them on a 1-2 min cooldown before recharging instead of having them break entirely.

I would have more feedback on the balance of the modules themselves, but you don't get enough exp to experiment with taking a bunch of things up to a high level.  Especially since I don't know what IRE/doom accelerator/etc damage works out to be.  Are there any new cheats implemented, to unlock modules and give exp and stuff?

Also: minor faction warp gate

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Request for details on "Balance: Another pass on champion modules"
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2012, 06:10:10 pm »
I would honestly rather something like the old Angelwing - You could rebuild modules given time, even destroyed ones. You also get 5 nostalgia points if you get that reference without looking it up.
Good ol' Nexus.

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(additionally, depending on how you look at it - is it a 'shield module' on the outside of a ship that must be destroyed before it breaks?, or merely the representation of a internal shield projection device? I tend to see them more as a representation of an internal system, and thus should never die.. hm coming to think of it.. little bit more later)
All modules are external; the weapons ones were made invulnerable a while ago for convenience.

And if you don't think battle damage (short of destruction) can render an internal system completely and utterly a lost cause without replacement by a yard, I beg to differ ;)

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On my 'shield modules are a representation of an internal system' - Would it be possible to modify shields such that they dont die?
Not really, without opening some huge cans of code worms.

I think I'll just try letting the large ally starbases assist the champion build queue, it seems like the least invasive way to address the issue, and I agree that it's not fundamentally different from just keeping some clandestine engineers on the other side of the wormhole (a tactic I wholeheartedly endorse, but perhaps it's not so fun for other people).
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Offline orzelek

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Re: Request for details on "Balance: Another pass on champion modules"
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2012, 06:17:59 pm »
*cut*
Most of the normal modules I have a bit different problem with. They come with many shots which leads to very spread out damage. And they don't seem to respect focus fire in any way so you end up with them scratching paint and main gun actually killing things. At least until you have really many of them.
When I right click a target, all modules (in range) fire on it.  If you have a save where they're not doing that please send it my way.
Hmmm..
What you write works for me once. It works only for target you click directly. I'm not even sure if target has lots of health if it works longer than few seconds (didn't test that on a golem). After that.. it's free land each module shoots whatever it wants. They do keep targeting priority.. mostly.

In attached save champion is next to barracks. Pop them and target one of maws. First maw will die with everything shooting at it. After that main gun and modules start shooting other maws - but modules spread fire as they want between them. And with not enough maws for all shots modules shoot other targets. Thats best visible with MRLS I think since it has many shots.

Net effect is that modules prefer maximum spread fire (like paralyzers should). I have paralyzers on this champion so you can take a look how they target. For me after maws (can't paralyze but they respect target priority) they would focus fire (like other modules should with focus fire on?). Looks like logic is a bit.. other way around :D

Right clicking each maw in range one after the other (need similar thing with hybrids but there preferred target fails while it holds here) is kind of annoying. And for maws for example you really want them dead like.. yesterday. I would expect similar thing with other high hp/high nastiness targets.

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Request for details on "Balance: Another pass on champion modules"
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2012, 07:08:51 pm »
Quote
(additionally, depending on how you look at it - is it a 'shield module' on the outside of a ship that must be destroyed before it breaks?, or merely the representation of a internal shield projection device? I tend to see them more as a representation of an internal system, and thus should never die.. hm coming to think of it.. little bit more later)
All modules are external; the weapons ones were made invulnerable a while ago for convenience.

And if you don't think battle damage (short of destruction) can render an internal system completely and utterly a lost cause without replacement by a yard, I beg to differ ;)

Quote
On my 'shield modules are a representation of an internal system' - Would it be possible to modify shields such that they dont die?
Not really, without opening some huge cans of code worms.

I think I'll just try letting the large ally starbases assist the champion build queue, it seems like the least invasive way to address the issue, and I agree that it's not fundamentally different from just keeping some clandestine engineers on the other side of the wormhole (a tactic I wholeheartedly endorse, but perhaps it's not so fun for other people).
Oh, theyre actually invulnerable now? I just thought they were just actually the lowest targeting priority now. In theory they end up the same..

If the argument is something along the lines of "battle damage blahblah"... I dunno. I cant really get behind that, when you are abstracting things this much. Why cant I shoot the guns off of the enemy starbase then? Surely I could.. I also cant actually deal engine damage without dedicated engine damage units. Why would 'regular' bullets be able to COMPLETELY destroy any shipboard system then?
I just feel the argument is a little silly with the level of stuff we arent allowing take battle damage.

I mean if the problem is codewise it wont really work, I can understand that. I didn't really expect that to work particularly well, I was mostly just throwing out random ideas to see  if anything somewhat might work to fix this problem apparently only I have. Really sad to have it end up being an issue of that sort though, I think I had at least one or two good ideas :(

I am happy though that I convinced you to allow the building, I just felt it was a little silly to require people to carry engineers just to get around the 'cant rebuild in nebula' thing.

@dotjd thats essentially what happens now, with the modules being fully destroyed, and being rebuilt by the owner. Its what I would like to happen to the championship at the moment, which is the actual context of most of the stuff... I dunno.
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Offline Toranth

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Re: Request for details on "Balance: Another pass on champion modules"
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2012, 07:40:18 pm »
For the original question, I think most modules are fine.  However, there are a few...
Flak simply feels weak.  Mostly because single-target DPS is so low, even with multipliers.  You need both 4 targets and multipliers to match the equivalent basic weapon module.  In general, for an AOE module, I'd rather have a Lightning Turret module (or Electric Shuttle, if you prefer). 
Acid are OK damage wise, but aside from polycrystal, those multipliers make them rather niche.
Paralyzers tend to focus fire too much.  Otherwise, they do very good DPS and paralyze.  Outside of the nebulas, these are a very good general choice.
Rail Cannons have odd multipliers.  A cross between the three basic types?  They seem to lack purpose overall.

Finally, the drones.  Two problems there.
First, I think the drones have too short a lifespan.  Especially the Slicer drones, which spend most of their lifespan chasing down the enemy before they can even attack.
Second, drones do not inherit targetting orders from the main ship.  That means it is impossible to get any kind of focus fire with a drone-based Champion (with microing every drone every 2 seconds).



*cut*
Most of the normal modules I have a bit different problem with. They come with many shots which leads to very spread out damage. And they don't seem to respect focus fire in any way so you end up with them scratching paint and main gun actually killing things. At least until you have really many of them.
When I right click a target, all modules (in range) fire on it.  If you have a save where they're not doing that please send it my way.
Hmmm..
What you write works for me once. It works only for target you click directly. I'm not even sure if target has lots of health if it works longer than few seconds (didn't test that on a golem). After that.. it's free land each module shoots whatever it wants. They do keep targeting priority.. mostly.

In attached save champion is next to barracks. Pop them and target one of maws. First maw will die with everything shooting at it. After that main gun and modules start shooting other maws - but modules spread fire as they want between them. And with not enough maws for all shots modules shoot other targets. Thats best visible with MRLS I think since it has many shots.

Net effect is that modules prefer maximum spread fire (like paralyzers should). I have paralyzers on this champion so you can take a look how they target. For me after maws (can't paralyze but they respect target priority) they would focus fire (like other modules should with focus fire on?). Looks like logic is a bit.. other way around :D

Right clicking each maw in range one after the other (need similar thing with hybrids but there preferred target fails while it holds here) is kind of annoying. And for maws for example you really want them dead like.. yesterday. I would expect similar thing with other high hp/high nastiness targets.
In a related item, I've got a save here were the champion is only attacking with the main gun (despite having a full load of other weapons).
I don't have a save for it at the moment, but I've also seen the 'modules attacking things other than ordered' effect, a lot.  I'll post a save if I can get one reliably duplicating.

Offline rabican

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Re: Request for details on "Balance: Another pass on champion modules"
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2012, 12:31:13 am »
For the original question, I think most modules are fine.  However, there are a few...
Flak simply feels weak.  Mostly because single-target DPS is so low, even with multipliers.  You need both 4 targets and multipliers to match the equivalent basic weapon module.  In general, for an AOE module, I'd rather have a Lightning Turret module (or Electric Shuttle, if you prefer). 
Acid are OK damage wise, but aside from polycrystal, those multipliers make them rather niche.
Paralyzers tend to focus fire too much.  Otherwise, they do very good DPS and paralyze.  Outside of the nebulas, these are a very good general choice.
Rail Cannons have odd multipliers.  A cross between the three basic types?  They seem to lack purpose overall.

Finally, the drones.  Two problems there.
First, I think the drones have too short a lifespan.  Especially the Slicer drones, which spend most of their lifespan chasing down the enemy before they can even attack.
Second, drones do not inherit targetting orders from the main ship.  That means it is impossible to get any kind of focus fire with a drone-based Champion (with microing every drone every 2 seconds).



This is pretty much my opinion as well.

One other thing : Spire Shadow vessel unlock needs to unlock large weapon mount usable by spire at the same time. I've done 2 games up to brawl part where i never got a weapon for my spire ships.

Also insanity inducer seems to suffer from same kind of targeting logic errors as paralyzers.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Request for details on "Balance: Another pass on champion modules"
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2012, 12:52:49 am »
Idea: if shields fall to 0, put them on a 1-2 min cooldown before recharging instead of having them break entirely.

I would have more feedback on the balance of the modules themselves, but you don't get enough exp to experiment with taking a bunch of things up to a high level.  Especially since I don't know what IRE/doom accelerator/etc damage works out to be.  Are there any new cheats implemented, to unlock modules and give exp and stuff?

I'm not sure if it is enabled, but if the language files are correct, if there is such a cheat, it would be 'gain xp' (without the single quotes)

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Also: minor faction warp gate

Seconded. Hopefully it can get nominated in time for the second "what should be done" poll.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Request for details on "Balance: Another pass on champion modules"
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2012, 12:18:39 pm »
I like Paralyzers, when they fire they leave half the targets dead and the other half paralyzed for minutes. Quite a low ROF for a small module though.