Author Topic: Assault Transport Oversight?  (Read 20831 times)

Offline Red.Queen

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Re: Assault Transport Oversight?
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2015, 05:12:27 pm »
Good times.  :) Theres a decent guide of using it, by the way: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php?topic=15676.0 , though cant recall if it can spawn usable carriers.

The man machine himself appears!  :) Thanks for the link Hunter, it's just what we needed.

@ Pumpkin and Traveller -- That's two more votes plus my own preference for trying the easy route and simply ripping the guns off the damn thing, at least as a starting point.  That's what I've been waiting and watching for.  As it is now the start of my "weekend" (I work a weird schedule) and I am back at my own machine instead of brazenly posting from the office, am well-rested and have caffeine and sugar ready at hand...  <cracks knuckles and begins launching my battery of programming tools>

Incoming Mod (AI 3) to ? ?? ? in 30:00-60:00 Assuming it works.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 05:48:39 pm by Red.Queen »
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Offline Red.Queen

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Re: Assault Transport Oversight?
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2015, 06:22:59 pm »
Slight delay in wave launch to synchronise threads.  ;)

Assault Transports sans guns available to anyone who wants to try it.

Mod thread.
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Offline Chris_Stalis

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Re: Assault Transport Oversight?
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2015, 11:53:49 pm »
Hey Red.Queen, wanted to give you an update:

I've been exploring this, and it seems that the ATs have to be using a different mechanic than raw number of ships. I started up a test game with multiple homeworlds against 2 difficulty 5 AIs (this was the lowest difficulty that seemed to spawn wormhole guards). I tested 13 different transports loaded with 1 to 13 laser gatlings for test. All 13 fired only 1 shot/volley (240 damage) against the guardpost. I then took the transport with 11 gatlings and loaded it with an additional 189 fighters (all mk I) and went to a new wormhole guardpost. This new ship now fired 39 shots/volley (9360 damage).

So... I don't know what to make of this, as it does not match at all the previous testing I was doing a few days ago. Let me know if I can help out any further on this.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Assault Transport Oversight?
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2015, 07:47:30 am »
Hey Red.Queen, wanted to give you an update:

I've been exploring this, and it seems that the ATs have to be using a different mechanic than raw number of ships. I started up a test game with multiple homeworlds against 2 difficulty 5 AIs (this was the lowest difficulty that seemed to spawn wormhole guards). I tested 13 different transports loaded with 1 to 13 laser gatlings for test. All 13 fired only 1 shot/volley (240 damage) against the guardpost. I then took the transport with 11 gatlings and loaded it with an additional 189 fighters (all mk I) and went to a new wormhole guardpost. This new ship now fired 39 shots/volley (9360 damage).

So... I don't know what to make of this, as it does not match at all the previous testing I was doing a few days ago. Let me know if I can help out any further on this.

Ah, so that IS the case.  I'm not an Assault Transport user, so I wasn't sure, but from what RQ had posted earlier:

Quote
public int GetEffectiveNumberOfSecondaryShots(FInt ContainedStrength, int TransportedUnitCount)
{
...
                containedStrength = ContainedStrength / this.GainsOneSecondaryShotPerThisManyTransportedUnits;
                intValue = num + containedStrength.IntValue;
                return intValue;
the code certainly looks like it is caring about the Strength of the loaded units.

A quick check confirms.  A single volley from an AT loaded with 200 Mk I fighters did 9,840 damage (41 shots) to a Wormhole GP, while an AT loaded with 200 Mk IV Fighters did 39,640 damage (165.167 shots?).  No idea how the fractional shot got in there, but I did it several times and got the same result every time.  That's (fractions aside) 4 times the Mk I result - perfectly in line with 4x the content strength.

By the way, an Assault Transport loaded with 200 Spire Battleships can one-shot a Wormhole Guardpost - more than 4,000,000 damage in one volley.

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Assault Transport Oversight?
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2015, 10:08:32 am »
Quote
one-shot a Wormhole Guardpost
:o

However, how many times does it takes for 200 SBShips to kill a WHole GPost?
1) If loading a transport increase firepower, it's broken
2) If loading a transport decrease firepower, it's lame
3) If loading a transport doesn't change the firepower, where is the point?
I think I put my finger on why I dislike the idea of ships firing from within a transport. (At least in AI War. And for the sake of CPU coolness, OK for the AI Carriers.)
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Offline Chris_Stalis

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Re: Assault Transport Oversight?
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2015, 03:45:52 pm »
Quote
one-shot a Wormhole Guardpost
:o

However, how many times does it takes for 200 SBShips to kill a WHole GPost?
1) If loading a transport increase firepower, it's broken
2) If loading a transport decrease firepower, it's lame
3) If loading a transport doesn't change the firepower, where is the point?
I think I put my finger on why I dislike the idea of ships firing from within a transport. (At least in AI War. And for the sake of CPU coolness, OK for the AI Carriers.)

heh... main cannon on a spire battleship does 720k if the ship and target are both stationary, so you should be able to one shot a WHGP with only 6 of them ;)

To answer your question about firepower, the mechanic is specifically supposed to result in a loss of firepower as written. The reason for this is that the AT has scout class armor, which very, very few things have a bonus against. This significantly ups its suitability to flying your ships around the cosmos, as there are less things that can eat into your main fleet in one go. Additionally, fortresses only do 5% damage against them. Their purpose is to let you fly directly up to the target, do a few rounds of damage to weaken things a bit, then disgorge the armada inside for the main furball.

They also have the advantage of speed, and are phenomenally useful in redeploying spire fleets to hotspots (though, I'm not sure main spire fleets are actually supposed to be transportable).

They are definitely worth the 3000 knowledge as written, but basing the mechanic on interior strength effectively doubles your fleet firepower, as the one ship can then soak up significant damage before disgorging the interior fleet to continue the engagement.

Offline Red.Queen

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Re: Assault Transport Oversight?
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2015, 06:12:26 pm »
Chris and Toranth -- Numerous thanks for the testing data, it gives me some angles to check.  It almost sounds like the ATs are using *both*  internal strength and count to get the final result.  I'm pretty sure that's not the intended way for this to be working, and I'm suspicious that may also be why we're seeing issues with it updating the shot count after the AT load changes, as I don't remember the references to this stuff in the moment to moment unit updating looking at both strength and shot count.  I'm going to dig some more and see if I can tame this behavior at least partially.

Pumpkin --
That's what my "Not So Assault" Stealth Transport patch is for.  No shooty-bang, all sneaky and movement utility.  :)
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Offline Arc-3N-4B

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Re: Assault Transport Oversight?
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2015, 06:16:33 pm »
So, I loaded 200 Super Spire Dreadnoughts into an Assault Transport.

It almost crashed my game but it OHKO'd everything it shot at.
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Offline Red.Queen

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Re: Assault Transport Oversight?
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2015, 06:41:32 pm »
<Mumbling to self>  I'm freaking blind.  The answer is staring me right in the damn face, I just refused to actually believe it because of all the crap from the unit descrip/tooltips and old posts that indicated it was internal strength agnostic.  Surely none of that is *grossly outdated* and the code is honest, nope.  <slaps self>  Never trust a tooltip...

The damage/shot calcs are working 100% correctly, aside from the not updating the count thing which I am still hunting for the cause of, I just need to find where some args get passed in and maybe force it to clear and repull them before shooting them into the actual shot/damage calc.  It's just... crazy amounts of damage and the unit descrip is obsolete, so we're all expecting it to do something completely different than what it's actually programmed to do.  The only reason there are two blocks of code, one for the AT and one for the carrier, is they have different variables tracking some of this crap. That's presumably a leftover from whenever they worked differently (assuming they ever did, that was before my time).

EDIT -- I wonder if the AT's damage output is a victim of power creep, where this approach would have been fine before one of the big stat overhauls, but now produces insane results.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 07:03:08 pm by Red.Queen »
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Offline Red.Queen

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Re: Assault Transport Oversight?
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2015, 07:02:44 pm »
Multipost because why not, this is all me talking as I work.

So, vote time!  I have a couple of possible solutions for the "LOLdps" issue that I can hack together while I bug hunt the update problem, if anyone wants to try stuff out and see how it feels.

!!VOTE!! (Yes voting is on fire.)

1. Quick and Dirty -- Just slash the number of shots it gains based off of its contents, don't worry about the strength.  Cutting the number of shots will balance it out.  Fast and easy.

2. Ignore Strength Completely! -- Instead of actually using argument 1, ContainedStrength, in the chunk that ATs use, I ignore it and rework the formula to go strictly off of the count.  This would be more like the old patch notes Toranth found.  It would require a bit more scanning of the code elsewhere to make sure it didn't blow something up compared to some of the other options.

3. Consider Strength, But Hard Capped -- I still look at strength, but I brickwall limit it  -- if it goes over <some value, think about how much you want>, I lock it to whatever the chosen max is.  It gets to consider the full value of the internal strength so long as it is below that point, so there are no scaling tricks.  This is the most complicated option as I have to stop and compare the given strength vs. the cap, and replace it if it's over.

4. Consider Strength, But Soft Capped -- I still look at strength, but I cut it by some percentage.  I let it consider 10%, 20%, whatever people settle on as good, and don't put a hard cap on it.  So if you somehow manage to stuff ridiculous ships inside it will still hit hard, but if you fill it up with normal stuff, it'll just never reach Ludicrous Damage because it only gets to use <some percent> with the total shot count multiplier.


EDIT -- Reworked list to make it less crap.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 04:56:10 pm by Red.Queen »
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Offline Toranth

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Re: Assault Transport Oversight?
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2015, 07:42:25 pm »
2. Quantity Over Quality -- Do something about it taking into account strength.  This will be harder to do, depending on the option chosen and I will need to double-check that it doesn't screw up something else, as ATs and Carriers and Powerslavers (and maybe Barracks) aren't the only units that do secondary shots, but I believe they are the only ones that change their shot counts dynamically like this.

It sounds like it was supposed to be Option 2-ish:
Quote from: 6.024 Release Notes
The Assault Transport has an attack. Unloaded, the cap of Assault Transports has a little over half the bonus-cap-dps of the mkI fighter so it's not very impressive (particularly considering the K cost). But every 10 ships in an assault transport gives it an additional shot-per-salvo, so a fully loaded cap of these is actually fairly powerful (but nowhere near as powerful as that many normal combatants).
but with
                containedStrength = ContainedStrength / this.GainsOneSecondaryShotPerThisManyTransportedUnits;
changed to
                containedStrength = TransportedUnitCount / this.GainsOneSecondaryShotPerThisManyTransportedUnits;


Of course, now I wonder:  Do PowerSlavers gain shots based on the strength of their contents?  Does a PowerSlaver that swallowed some Bombards going to be much more impressive than one that swallows Autocannons?
That could actually be kinda fun, now that I think about it... if micro-y

Offline Red.Queen

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Re: Assault Transport Oversight?
« Reply #41 on: May 07, 2015, 08:49:50 pm »
Toranth -- Quick reply because impending food -- no reference to contents strength at all for Powerslavers.  Wonder if that works correctly.

Will double check some stuff later to see if "make stuff actually work like the patch notes" would have unintended consequences elsewhere.  Might just need to add another chunk and aim ONLY the ATs at it.

Eat now, code later.  Mostly because other people will kill me if they don't get to eat because I am programming. ;)
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Offline Red.Queen

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Re: Assault Transport Oversight?
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2015, 03:02:52 am »
Refuelled, following up on this.

Looking again at the patch notes you posted, looks like the idea at that time was basically option "Ignore Strength Completely!"  (I'm going to edit that prior post and reorganize that list a bit to make it better, people are going to get confused...)

Thinking about it, I can see why it changed from that earlier idea somewhere along the way -- taking strength into account prevents cheesy stuff like cramming ATs full of noncombatant units like Engis and Scouts from producing an armed to the teeth AT.

On the other hand, even if you were to cram every zero-damage unit you could make into ATs, you'd only fill what, one?  One and a half?  With hacker products no longer transportable, there really isn't anything you can infinitely spam to stuff ATs with now.  So this way of doing things might now be doing more harm than good in normal play.

On the other, other hand, taking strength into account makes the mechanics consistent between the AI and the player.  All combat-capable container units calculate their damage in the same way, which is generally a good thing from an intuitive play perspective.

But, counterpoint, the player and the AI don't tend to build fleets quite the same way -- you have to run the AIP into the stratosphere to see a single AI fleet on the board that's pushing 30-50K strength, at least at difficulty 8 and under, but I get the impression most of the player base plays difficulties in that ballpark so they should probably be what guides balancing this the most.

I didn't see cohesive AI fleetgroups over 30K until I had AIP over 650-700 points.  The AI carriers are also slow and non-cloaking, they pass damage directly through to the containing units unlike human ATs, and they tend to start unloading them quickly rather than using them as-is until they pop, then turning the fleet inside loose to wreak havoc.  So, there's a valid argument that ATs and Carriers are NOT analogous, and thus *should* have different rules for computing damage.

Writing this out, I lean towards "ATs and Carriers should be handled differently" -- mostly.  I'd favor going with either the hard cap or soft cap on AT strength approach, and leave Carriers as they are so they keep their nasty alpha strike as compensation for their slow speed and inability to protect their contents.  They lack defense/utility, so they should keep their DPS.  ATs get a ton of defense and utility, so they should have their damage cut back.

Out of both, I'd prefer the soft cap, partially because it would be easy to write, and because it steps down the damage under all circumstances, so there's no weird "little power --> TONS OF POWER --> 3x as much power inside doesn't give you any more power over the previous step".  Brickwall caps like that are always a little bleh IMO, very brute-force.  It maintains a smooth climb in DPS gains as your fleet grows in power, producing deadly ATs only in late game, which is when the AI is going to be breaking out the big guns to match.

This change may possibly affect AI Barracks, but I can either insert a chunk to handle them the old way, or just let it be, since Barracks protect their units like ATs do, so they're getting an extra benefit Carriers don't and thus have compensation for losing some DPS.  Besides, half the time it's irrelevant anyway -- the Barracks will pop when the command station goes, so if you're capping the planet you don't even have to bother with the bunker, let it unload and smash what comes out.  Not something I'd lose sleep over.
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Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Assault Transport Oversight?
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2015, 06:53:23 am »
Quote
On the other, other hand
How many have you?

On the AI Carrier different from human AT, for me it's a big YES. AI Carrier is a cpu-saving representation of a big AI fleet; the DPS shall be the same, and effects like "ships get killed -> less DPS" shall also be respected (at best, drone spawners and FField immunities shall also be respected, but a simplification must loose something, or it's not a simplification). So AI Carriers are fine as they are, IMO.

Human AT are tools for the players, there could be trades like "fleet is better protected and faster (and cloaked)" -> traded against slightly less DPS, maybe. ("Unable to fire from inside" seems fine to me, but it's me.) Soft cap, hard cap, I don't mind. You (all) decide.

On the barracks topic... First I ignored they attacked; I always crack them open at the end of the neutering process. They die at the first little shot and I don't see what you mean with "Barracks protect their units like ATs do". However, if the Barracks have the same DPS as its content, it makes a turret that have the firepower of a little fleet... wow, rude, don't you think? I don't know how they work exactly, I deal with them like with an AI Zenith-reserve. Would someone enlighten me?
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Offline damiac

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Re: Assault Transport Oversight?
« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2015, 02:02:01 pm »
Wow I didn't realize just how broken these things are.  I just crammed all my ships into them, then used them to kill all the things, sometimes unloading at the edge of the gravity well, then using the transports to tie up the enemies while my snipers & zombards blew them up.

This sort of invalidates my wins to date.  Which may be a good thing, because I was starting to feel like difficulty 8 was really easy.