Author Topic: Armor rework?  (Read 1697 times)

Offline Martyn van Buren

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Armor rework?
« on: November 08, 2012, 03:33:50 am »
Just curious, is the armor rework people were talking about a few months back still in the cards?  I think I remember Keith being fairly pro the idea.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Armor rework?
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2012, 05:54:18 am »
It's still being tossed about just how armor is going to be changed. Nothing has changed yet, afaik.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Armor rework?
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2012, 10:04:19 am »
Yes, it's still planned, though I've been debating between a few different approaches.

Last week or so has had a lot of sick and lack of energy so not a lot of AIW work has gotten done.  Still some interesting things in the hopper, though ;)
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Armor rework?
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2012, 02:21:30 pm »
Well, again, if we're considering approaches the first question is "what's the purpose of armor in the game's balance".

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Armor rework?
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2012, 04:34:21 pm »
For the current intended purpose, only the devs can answer that.

However, for intended purspose, I see these roles for armor:

- To give a different, non-discrete (aka, based on a numeric stat and a formula on that stat) way to gain durability rather than just the primary one, HP (this also implies new counters towards this, like armor peircing and armor rotting, instead of just relying on more DPS)
- To give a way to differentiate low damage/high ROF from high damage/low ROF in terms of net DPS, and not just "firing ship lifetime" effects (overkill and damage decay due to firing ships dieing)

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Armor rework?
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2012, 10:04:31 am »
- To give a different, non-discrete (aka, based on a numeric stat and a formula on that stat) way to gain durability rather than just the primary one, HP (this also implies new counters towards this, like armor peircing and armor rotting, instead of just relying on more DPS)

I think people won't treat it as non-discrete, they'll either think "this has enough armor that it needs a special armor cracker for countering" or "this is soft enough to counter with regular stuff". Also it makes it much harder for the triangle to contain a counter for everything.

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- To give a way to differentiate low damage/high ROF from high damage/low ROF in terms of net DPS, and not just "firing ship lifetime" effects (overkill and damage decay due to firing ships dieing)

For this you'd have to do some across-the-board buff for weaker, high rate weapons. The current balance already skews towards heavies with their survivability and such, the high rate weapons would need a significant DPS increase to make up for the additional burden. Basically the high rate attackers would need to become a massive threat for unarmored ships.


Hell, we could also go for a separate evasion stat that makes smaller ships less vulnerable to heavy weapons.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 10:08:42 am by KDR_11k »

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Armor rework?
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2012, 10:46:23 am »
For this you'd have to do some across-the-board buff for weaker, high rate weapons. The current balance already skews towards heavies with their survivability and such, the high rate weapons would need a significant DPS increase to make up for the additional burden. Basically the high rate attackers would need to become a massive threat for unarmored ships.

Agreed. Right now, there is no corresponding mechanic to give high ROF, low damage per shot ships some desirablility, and in general, the high cap ships generally don't have enough cap health, cap DPS, or range to make up for this (not all high cap ships need the same bonus, but each type needs something to make up for this effect). Yea, there is armor peircing, but due to the current subtractive nature of armor piercing, it doesn't help much in most matchups against ships with enough armor to matter. In many other RTSs, physics and/or terrain effects, or their cheapness are their implicit draws. However, in AI war, there is little in the way of physics effects, no terrain effects, and the way the economy plays out is very different than most RTSs (in no small part due to the PvE nature of AI war)

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Hell, we could also go for a separate evasion stat that makes smaller ships less vulnerable to heavy weapons.

So long as this was determininistic (non-random) and non-discrete (aka, not a simple "hit" or "miss", but could be between 1x and 0x), then this would be a great new mechanic. Maybe have an "accuracy" stat*, and apply it to ship doing the firing, and then have the be the opposing stat to ship size or ship evasiveness or whatever.

We used to have a non-deterministic armor system (called shields back then, to great confusion ;)), and it got rather silly at times; I don't want to go back to a non-deterministic armor system.

*again, deterministic and non-discrete, which would make the term accuracy somewhat of a mis-nomer, but is the best I can think of at the moment.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Armor rework?
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2012, 11:36:40 am »
Do note that given two attacks with the same DPS, high ROF is better than low ROF due to overkill.  Only because AIW uses subtractive armor is the situation reversed at present.  Percentage damage reduction would favor high ROF over low ROF.  So if the goal is to make high ROF better against unarmored targets and worse against armor, then we need some subtractive component or an additional step that modifies the effectiveness of the armor based on the attack's damage (for example, 1m+ damage might reduce the armor multiplier by 20%, while 20 damage would leave the armor multiplier untouched).

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Armor rework?
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2012, 12:36:22 pm »
Adding new calculations to every single shot (new mechanics such as accuracy/dodge) would likely cause a lot of CPU bog-down that might not be worth it in terms of gameplay. You have to keep that into consideration as well. AI:War is already a CPU-hog.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Armor rework?
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2012, 12:54:15 pm »
Do note that given two attacks with the same DPS, high ROF is better than low ROF due to overkill.  Only because AIW uses subtractive armor is the situation reversed at present.  Percentage damage reduction would favor high ROF over low ROF.  So if the goal is to make high ROF better against unarmored targets and worse against armor, then we need some subtractive component or an additional step that modifies the effectiveness of the armor based on the attack's damage (for example, 1m+ damage might reduce the armor multiplier by 20%, while 20 damage would leave the armor multiplier untouched).

I think that making the armor system ratio/rational based would be nice.
After all, the HP/damage durability stats are already subtractive. Might be nice to "mix things up" a bit.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Armor rework?
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2012, 12:58:48 pm »
Actually, keeping armor subtractive is the best way to "mix things up" since that's the only +/- mechanic in damage right now.  Everything else is multiplicative.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Armor rework?
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2012, 01:15:45 pm »
For an evasion stat I was thinking something like "can dodge X attacks per Y seconds", a counter that goes down by one for every attack against the unit regardless of the attack strength and regenerates over time.

Do note that given two attacks with the same DPS, high ROF is better than low ROF due to overkill.  Only because AIW uses subtractive armor is the situation reversed at present.  Percentage damage reduction would favor high ROF over low ROF.  So if the goal is to make high ROF better against unarmored targets and worse against armor, then we need some subtractive component or an additional step that modifies the effectiveness of the armor based on the attack's damage (for example, 1m+ damage might reduce the armor multiplier by 20%, while 20 damage would leave the armor multiplier untouched).

Generally that's how armor is expected to work, armor is a buffer between the bullet and the vulnerable parts of the unit, only sufficiently powerful bullets can pass through that buffer. A Vulcan cannon can shred soft targets but the bullets won't be able to breach the armor of heavy forts (or tank front armor which doesn't matter for air attacks). A Vulcan has WAAAAAAY more DPS than heavy AP shells but it's pretty much negated by sufficiently heavy armor.

Offline Aeson

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Re: Armor rework?
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2012, 07:06:14 pm »
Personally, I prefer subtractive armor to percentage armor or more esoteric formulas for armor effects, since subtractive armor seems about right - it's most effective against weak attacks, and against sufficiently powerful attacks it doesn't matter. There's a reason why, when the world was building battleships, having larger guns and heavier broadsides was such a big deal.

From a purely gameplay perspective, I still prefer subtractive armor to percentage armor or armor whose effect is based off some formula I can never remember, because I can more easily calculate in my head how much the armor is going to do for me against the sort of things I'd be facing. Granted, there are some percentages that are easy enough to work out, but if I had, say, 21% armor, I don't want to have to work out what 79% of the enemy ship's attack would be to see if it's worth my while to unlock this particular ship against the kinds of opposition that I've been facing in the game. I also don't want to have to do silly things like dividing the square of the attack damage by the sum of the attack damage and the armor rating or multiply by some number divided by the sum of that number and the armor rating to figure out how much of an effect the armor on a new unit will have on the attacks it will be facing if I unlock it, and I also don't want to have to 1) have used the ship before to have a sense of how useful it would be in my situation or 2) need to open the reference chart in order to see how the unit I'm thinking of unlocking stacks up against the kinds of units I'm facing (yes, in order to have a good idea of how something will perform, I realize that I need to have used it before, but I should also be able to quickly form an opinion based off of looking at its statistics).

I think the real problem that armor has in this game is that the damage range is so large - we have units that deal a couple hundred damage per shot, and we also have units that deal a couple hundred thousand damage per shot, and a handful that can do millions of damage per shot.

Do note that given two attacks with the same DPS, high ROF is better than low ROF due to overkill.  Only because AIW uses subtractive armor is the situation reversed at present.  Percentage damage reduction would favor high ROF over low ROF.  So if the goal is to make high ROF better against unarmored targets and worse against armor, then we need some subtractive component or an additional step that modifies the effectiveness of the armor based on the attack's damage (for example, 1m+ damage might reduce the armor multiplier by 20%, while 20 damage would leave the armor multiplier untouched).

Percentage armor doesn't have anything to do with favoring a higher ROF over a lower ROF. It will favor a high DPS unit over a low DPS unit, but not necessarily a high ROF unit over a low ROF unit. For example, let's say I had two ships, one of type A, which deals 3000 damage once every 30 seconds, and one of type B, which deals 1000 damage every 10 seconds. Let's assume that I'm attacking ships of type C with each of these ships, and ships of type C have a 10% armor rating. A will do 2700 damage to C every 30 seconds, while B will do 900 damage to C every 10 seconds or 2700 damage every 30 seconds, with the result that A and B have the same performance against C (not considering overkill). If, on the other hand, A did 4000 damage per shot every 30 seconds and B remained the same as before, A will now deal 3600 damage every 30 seconds while B still deals 900 damage every 10 seconds or 2700 damage every 30 seconds. There may, of course, be other reasons to favor B over A, but in terms of performance against armor in a one-to-one comparison, percentage armor does not necessarily favor high ROF units.

Subtractive armor, which we currently have, does a good job of differentiating same-DPS units that have different rates of fire. Percentage armor will not do that.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Armor rework?
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2012, 08:28:42 pm »
Subtractive armor, which we currently have, does a good job of differentiating same-DPS units that have different rates of fire. Percentage armor will not do that.
This is in response to something I said, but all you've done is repeat exactly what I said.  So I'm not sure why you picked me to respond to when you actually agree with me.

Offline Aeson

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Re: Armor rework?
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2012, 09:46:15 pm »
Subtractive armor, which we currently have, does a good job of differentiating same-DPS units that have different rates of fire. Percentage armor will not do that.
This is in response to something I said, but all you've done is repeat exactly what I said.  So I'm not sure why you picked me to respond to when you actually agree with me.

Because I misread your statement as saying that percentage armor favored higher ROF weapons over lower ROF weapons, rather than as saying that percentage armor favors higher ROF weapons over lower ROF weapons due to overkill.