Are Hybrids Too Weak?

[TechSY730]

For all the jokes about "hybrids coming to get you" that tend to float around, right now, hybrids aren't all that threatening.


http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=8867


Right now, I don't find hybrids all that much of a problem. In large part, because the base stats of hybrids seem too weak (about a Mk. I or Mk. II starship) , and low maturity ones (ones with low Mk. modules) are a little too eager to attack in low numbers.
However, even hybrids with many Mk. III and Mk. IV modules seem to fall pretty darn quickly, without making a large amount of economic damage to live up to what that level of hybrid should be doing.


EDIT: However, If hybrids are made more tough, spawn rates should be reviewed!

[keith.lamothe]

If someone could provide a save where a group of hybrids are about to attack a planet they can't hope to defeat (preferably before they depart from the AI command station) I could take a look at that; they're supposed to wait until the firepower under their command is at least in the ballpark of the target planet (even allowing for turrets having low FP-values, etc).

[Wingflier]

Turn both hybrid plots to 7/10 and turn the AI on hard. Then come back and tell me it's too easy.

[TechSY730]

Turn both hybrid plots to 7/10 and turn the AI on hard. Then come back and tell me it's too easy.

I'm on AI level 8, but with 4/10 (the standard). It's rather a combination of two things. One, low maturation hybrids are too eager to attack (I'll try to get a save). Two, even with high level modules, a hybrid isn't all that threatening.


My primary complaints are about individual hybrids. Now, I know that their strength comes from numbers (which is why I mentioned their spawn rate), but sometimes the hybrids seem to forget that.

[Minotaar]

Hybrids demand serious firepower to bring down as-is. I think having defenses in place should be enough to deflect most small hybrid attacks. It is after all just an AI plot and is not supposed to beat you by itself.

If you don't have the turrets to spare for all of your planets, then you'll repeatedly get punished even by small groups of them. Can't just take any small bunch of ships and expect to do well against them.

I believe hybrids are in a reasonable place, and the balancing the player can provide for themselves by tweaking the intensity is enough for now.

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, I think they're ok strength-wise.  The AI is the thing that is just massively, overpoweringly strong but really doesn't make a coherent, focused attempt to kill the player.  The hybrids do everything in their power to kill the player without holding anything back, but correspondingly have to actually be waaaaaay weaker than the AI (or else you just die, all day, all the time).

But if they're doing something markedly stupid (like throwing 3 hybrids at a citadel-world with no other AI attack happening there), I want to see that so I can fix it.

[Wingflier]

I think the thread name is wrong or misleading. Are Hybrids too weak? Well turn them to 7/10 and find out yourself.

Could Hybrid behavior be improved? That's a different question entirely.

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, terminology may be off.  I just take it as "Are Hybrids Not Threatening Enough?".

[TechSY730]

I think the thread name is wrong or misleading. Are Hybrids too weak? Well turn them to 7/10 and find out yourself.

Could Hybrid behavior be improved? That's a different question entirely.

You're right. A better title would of been "Is a Hybrid too weak" or "Are the base stats of Hybrids themselves too low" or something like that.

And again, I am talking about 4/10, the balance point. Then again, how hard should 4/10 be is a good question.

But if they're doing something markedly stupid (like throwing 3 hybrids at a citadel-world with no other AI attack happening there), I want to see that so I can fix it.

Not only are they doing that, I find that this is the norm, not the exception.
Then again, I do use turrets for defense quite heavily, so they may be getting thrown off by the "Consider turrets firepower 10x less threatening because they can't move" rule. (Which, BTW, I still think that 10x is too much of a threat consideration reduction)

I'll try to get you a save later tonight.

[Coppermantis]

If someone could provide a save where a group of hybrids are about to attack a planet they can't hope to defeat (preferably before they depart from the AI command station) I could take a look at that; they're supposed to wait until the firepower under their command is at least in the ballpark of the target planet (even allowing for turrets having low FP-values, etc).

This always happens to me. Always. I remember when I started a 10/10 game with hybrids you said "if you can even survive the first Hybrid attack on 10/10 I want a video ". The first hybrid attack? A single hybrid marches into my system and dies. Lasted maybe a few seconds. Even in my current game the hybrids are basically no threat, they are eliminated by my turret defenses every time. I'll try to get a save if you want one.


As it is now the only threat Hybrids pose is the dyson plot.

[keith.lamothe]

The single hybrid flying through was probably a routing problem trying to get to their waiting point, rather than it thinking that they had enough to attack.  That's why I was asking about groups.

The routing problem is also a problem though.

[TechSY730]

The single hybrid flying through was probably a routing problem trying to get to their waiting point, rather than it thinking that they had enough to attack.  That's why I was asking about groups.

The routing problem is also a problem though.

I've seen "groups" of like 2 or 3 hybrids throwing themselves on a well defended planet with frightening regularity as well.

EDIT: The routing problem you describe may also be hitting retreating ships and special forces ships, as I frequently find individual ships coming into my planets, and promptly dieing, even when other freed ships are waiting like they should.

[Coppermantis]

The single hybrid flying through was probably a routing problem trying to get to their waiting point, rather than it thinking that they had enough to attack.  That's why I was asking about groups.

The routing problem is also a problem though.

It was on a snake map with my homeworld at one end. Still, The group attacks are fairly nonthreatening but I don't play enough to see a lot of attacks anyway. Was the ability to recolonize ever added? I haven't been keeping up with updates. I forget a lot of things that the Hybrids are supposed to do.

[doctorfrog]

My response as a novice player:

1. They are threatening enough for me at 7. Plenty threatening. I'd be tempted to just turn them off if they were just tweaked to be "just plain" tougher (higher stats/only attacking when sure of a win). AI plots should be an enticing challenge, not a stacking punishment.

2. I don't mind a few getting lost on their way to a waypoint or even becoming "impatient" and attacking. I feel it fits them as "immature" hybrid units who can't wait to unleash their firepower, and sometimes just go for it, ready or not.

I'm not saying "don't fix it," just that until now, I was happy thinking of them as different units that behave differently... because they're different! I kind of like them starting out as a bit of a joke and then slowly becoming something you'd really dread. That's why they evolve.

Consider this, in addition to just making the game harder for high-level players.

[TechSY730]

I am currently in the middle of a "cheat game" with pretty much all AI aggression disabled except for hybrids, and a ludicrous amount of stuff for me.
This way, I can try to reproduce the "suicidal hybrid" behavior in isolation.