Author Topic: Any high-threat saves around?  (Read 9172 times)

Offline x4000

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Re: Any high-threat saves around?
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2010, 01:02:27 pm »
Spikey: you have... 17,147 threat!?  Wow, that's a better test case than I realized, actually.  That's... intense.
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Offline Spikey00

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Re: Any high-threat saves around?
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2010, 01:05:04 pm »
Why yes, my good sir, yes indeed I do!  A number greater than your current post count, surprisingly.  :3
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Offline x4000

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Re: Any high-threat saves around?
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2010, 01:05:45 pm »
Heh.
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Offline Sizzle

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Re: Any high-threat saves around?
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2010, 01:19:03 pm »
Err.... I have no flipping clue what I'd do about 17k threat!

Thats one of those situations where my choice is:

Build even MORE defenses to handle said siege, which leads to the siege building up which leads to more threat, which leads to more defenses.... until the player either dies spectacularly, or the AI is mistaken in believing it can break the siege...

OR -- build a very large mobile fleet, and try a sortie to break the siege.  With munitions boosting while in AI territory, that makes that concept a very scary proposition,  as if 17k threat in of itself isn't already scary enough.

Seems like a vicious cycle to me.   

Either a) the player needs some sort of "out" that lets skillful play get out of this type of vicious cycle. or
         b) the player should already have "nipped this in the bud" a long time ago, and this should rapidly build up to the point where the player will get squashed for letting it get this far  (i.e. make it a rapid loss, rather than letting the stalemate continue)

I'm in favor of (a), but if (b) needs to happen... c'est la vie.

Offline x4000

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Re: Any high-threat saves around?
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2010, 01:20:39 pm »
That's true, Sizzle -- I won't put that munitions boosting thing in there at the moment, that would just feed the cycle.
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Offline Suzera

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Re: Any high-threat saves around?
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2010, 01:22:02 pm »
In higher difficulties, it is theoretically possible for 17k total ships to somewhat form around your borders, if they are wide enough. They aren't in threat (yet) but they do pile up rapidly if you ignore them for too long. CPAs can get pretty big if you ignore them. The instant I see a CPA warning I immediately try to thin everything adjacent out so I can preemptively blow up smaller chunks of the CPA while they are gathering.

Offline Spikey00

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Re: Any high-threat saves around?
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2010, 01:28:19 pm »
I highly doubt I will ever be at defeat of my game; 130 spire shields essentially guarantee fleet immunity to damage, and I only lose some of them because of AI ships that decide to overkill a shield before it starts shrinking.  :p

Besides, again, I don't see 18k ships anywhere near the two planets (one is an IV and the other is an AI homeworld), so all is well, hopefully. 
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Any high-threat saves around?
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2010, 01:32:47 pm »
This sounds similar to what was happening with Hybrids for a while: they would pile up on a planet that they thought the humans wanted, and just camp the dickens out of it.  Particularly if they had builders and could throw up dozens (or hundreds!) of forcefields, clusters, etc.  They don't have builders anymore, incidentally.

On X maps and whatnot this could lead to the humans being entirely chokepointed by the Hybrid fleet.  Bug reports followed.

In general, it was a tricky complaint for me to deal with because, to be honest, the Hybrids were playing a good hand ;)  And a hand often played by humans, I might add.

But it's not necessarily the "fun" thing for them to do, so they tend to be more aggressive nowadays (and more plans are in work in that direction), even if it isn't really the smartest thing for them to do.  Human players prefer to be destroyed rather than stalemated.

That said, I don't think this waiting-for-overwhelming-force thing is nearly so bad as the hybrids got.  Or nearly so bad as the end-game grind could get in past versions when AI homeworlds could reinforce to like 5k MkV ships and basically it was just a loss.  But the situations feel somewhat similar.
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Offline Spikey00

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Re: Any high-threat saves around?
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2010, 02:43:53 pm »
Yeah, I definitely have to agree with Keith here and say that the late game definitely becomes more of a grind because of all the AI ships and the new AI behavior.

Also, while I don't know _where_ the CPA ships are, the planet that's adjacent to mine (Xenon Core) has a ton of frigates and such; I am very confident that these are not CPA ships, but rather ships that spawned when I had a neutral buffer planet in between (waves became ???), so the CPA ships aren't even on the front lines.
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Offline Suzera

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Re: Any high-threat saves around?
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2010, 02:56:32 pm »
In my current game, it has actually become somewhat less of a pure grind now beyond the early mid-game. Can't just steamroll an AI that only has terrible ships while picking good ships and flooring AIP anymore.

Offline Mithror

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Re: Any high-threat saves around?
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2010, 03:29:46 pm »
So, I took practically all my ships except those on Vuwa and Garmicqui and went to attack the homeworld. None of the ships from the threat level attacked me. Though I was happy with that, I feel the AI should have attacked me while I was weak :)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Any high-threat saves around?
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2010, 03:50:12 pm »
The problem I have with it is that there does seem to be a point that the AI truly WILL have overwhelming force, and can just come crush you.  Without spending hours of time literally "clearing out the beehives" of adjacent planets full of forces on "standby", I'm not sure how the player is supposed to deal with this.
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Offline Suzera

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Re: Any high-threat saves around?
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2010, 03:59:05 pm »
You deal with it by cleaning them out before they become overwhelming of course. If you let the AI get an overwhelming force, you're not paying enough attention. :)

Offline x4000

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Re: Any high-threat saves around?
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2010, 04:02:59 pm »
Well, that is a good point.  I'm certainly open to discussion on this point.  My main thoughts, with the system as-is, would be:

1. Set up defense-in-depth, with your best defenses on the bottleneck behind your bottleneck.  Then when the AI comes crushing into your first bottleneck, you can crush them back.  Let's call this the "honeypot" approach.

2. You can indeed go out and sweep through the adjacent planets to kill the AI preemptively.  Since all the AI ships would be clustered around the wormhole right next to the planet they are considering attacking (though rather sparsely), this shouldn't be an enormous chore, but it leads them to fight you in their territory, and they may well retreat, etc.


Now, regarding what could be changed about the system:

HKs as Siege Breakers
With the hunter/killers, it's possible those should be lone-gunmen type of ships like raid starships, etc.  So they are highly survivable and come crushing into your system past the normal siege ships, blasting up your defenses.  You'd have warning of them being created, and they'd come from the AI homeworlds, so you'd have some time.

Pros: you don't have to look for the AI; it's possible that if your defenses are truly awesome at the bottleneck, you can maintain it in a fairly automated fashion; the other AI ships that aren't replaced by an HK can then join in the attack if it's sensible to do so, or maintain the siege if it's not.
Cons: it might make things much harder; it might lead to the same sort of AI-impaling-itself-on-your-stuff logic that used to be there; it's very unforgiving to planets that are not enormous bottlenecks, thus unintentionally encouraging super-bottlenecks even more.


Ideally, players won't create super-bottlenecks that can withstand tens of thousands of ships.  When they do that, that creates problems one way or another.  Either it's impossible for the player to lose, or if the AI waits until the AI has overwhelming force against that, then it's impossible for the player to win.  In the past it was just the first case, I quite like the addition of that second one.

It's a tricky question, though, no doubt.  Let's wait until we see the HKs in there before we go too far with further changes, though: since those will be centralizing firepower, so to speak, that might make things more interesting.  Also, there may be some other bug there presently which is causing the threat to stay very high longer than it should, with those ships way off in the middle of nowhere.  With Spikey's save, I think a lot of those threat ships are attached to Hybrids, but there still dont seem to be enough bordering his planets.  I need to look into that more and get that cleaned up before we can really see how this siege-type mechanic effects the game properly.  It will feel really different just from these upcoming changes alone, I think, and then it would be easier to decide on what further, if anything, needs to be done.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Any high-threat saves around?
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2010, 04:07:38 pm »
With Spikey's save, I think a lot of those threat ships are attached to Hybrids
Odd, I had made it so that the threat count logic doesn't count hybrid drones (though it does count the hybrid itself, I believe); it counts coordinated ships that aren't under a hybrid, though, but those only show up in the fallen-spire stuff right now.
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