An added idea to give "oomph" to the MK IV nenzul enclave

[TechSY730]

Just to let you all know, the deep strike punish isn't actually that huge a deal.
The rate the units spawn is pretty sad, so unless you are deep striking for like several hours straight, it isn't going to be that big a deal.

How do I know? I have watched the units spawn from the homeworld due to this mechanic, and it wasn't all that much.

[Bognor]

I'm saying that by the time you obtain enclave-IVs you end up with eight speed-enhanced mobile space docks, rather than two. You won't be needing engineers with that patch for shiptypes with low build-time like cutlasses, gatlings and nanoswarms, which is equivalent to a much cheaper regenerator golem for them.

Gotcha.  Thought I must've been misunderstanding something 

[Hearteater]

You can use Transport IIs to heal Younglings, although there is still the issue of getting them out there in the first place.  Maybe if we could be Transports in Transports...

[Wingflier]

Okay here are the options for buffing the Neinzul Enclave Starship MKIV that I've seen in this thread:

1. Give it the Neinzul Regeneration Chamber ability, except that normal fleetships can also "load" into it to heal.

2. Having the MKIV Enclave Starship present on a planet cancels the deep-strike effect.

3. The ability to "store up" build points, which allowed it to reproduce ships instantly for a short period of time.

4. Give the Enclave Starship series a new special type of Neinzul Swarmer that can only be built from it, that aids in deep strikes.

Personally I like options 1 and 2 - I think adding them both together would potentially make the Enclave Starship very useful, without adding any new game mechanics.

Number 3 seems superflous, considering the rate at which the Enclave Starship already builds and not sure what to say about 4.

Did I miss any ideas?  Maybe we should make a poll.

[TechSY730]

I vote for 1.
The deep strike effect (at least when I tried it on difficulty 8 at AIP 500 or so) isn't very severe; the ships spawn at a pathetic rate. Only if you plan on deep striking for like an hour or more straight would you start caring about it. As such, I am not really pushing for 2.

As mentioned, IMHO, 3 and 4 seem more like gimmick mechanics than something that would make the Mk. IV more useful than just a rebuild able Mk. IV factory.

[Wingflier]

I was thinking, what if we did a complete revamp of the Enclave system.

Part of the problem with the MKIV Enclaves in general is that it forces you to pay the extra knowledge, even if you already have access to a MKIV Factory - which is pointless.

Here's my suggestion to revamp it, and make it a lot more relevant and useful:

MK1 Enclaves = Free, can only build MK1 ships.

MK2 Enclaves = 2,000 knowledge, can only build MK2 ships.

MK3 Enclaves = 2,500 knowledge, can only build MK3 ships.

MK4 Enclaves = 3,000 knowledge, can only build MK4 ships, must have a MKIV Factory captured somewhere in the galaxy in order to function.

Core Enclaves = 10,000 knowledge, can build all MK1-MK4 ships, builds at 12x speed of a normal factory, does not require a Factory in order to build MKIV stuff.  Has the Neinzul Regeneration Chamber ability, which works on all allied fleet ships.

The Core Enclaves would be a solution for the player who had lost their factory, or decided to skip it.  The advantage it has over all the Neinzul Enclave predecessors is that it can build every tier of ship (1-4), so the player saves a lot of energy and hassle not needing to bring all the other types along, as well as having the Neinzul Regeneration Chamber ability.

This way, the player isn't forced to pay the ridiculous knowledge cost of an entirely new MKIV Factory, just to be able to produce ships from the Enclaves - but that option is still open to them in the worst case scenarios.

[PokerChen]

Keith has updated the changelog - it looks like there may be some new toy to play with.

http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Current_Post-5.000_Beta#Prerelease_5.036

Didn't want to let the AI have _all_ the fun, so: Added 4 new drone ship types that only the Neinzul Enclave Starship can build:
Neinzul Laser Drone I-IV
MkI and II require Laser Turret II technology. MkIII and IV require Laser Turret III technology.
Has 5x bonuses against the hull types that Laser Turrets have a bonus against.
Neinzul Needler Drone I-IV
MkI and II require Basic Turret II technology. MkIII and IV require Basic Turret III technology.
Has 5x bonuses against the hull types that Basic Turrets have a bonus against.
Neinzul MLRS Drone I-IV
MkI and II require MLRS Turret II technology. MkIII and IV require MLRS Turret III technology.
Has 5x bonuses against the hull types that MLRS Turrets have a bonus against.
Neinzul Missile Drone I-IV
MkI and II require Missile Turret II technology. MkIII and IV require Missile Turret III technology.
Has 5x bonuses against the hull types that Missile Turrets have a bonus against.
A Neinzul Enclave Starship can build any of these up to its own mark level once you have the corresponding turret technology, just select an enclave and click the "DRONE" tab on the buy menu (similar to how the Starship Constructor has a "RIOT" tab for the Riot Control Starships).
Stat wise:
Each drone only lives 30 seconds; no repair, no attrition-stops-on-low-power, no regeneration chambers, nada. It's got 30 seconds to hurt something.
Drones do not have the lightning speed of the normal Youngling types (not wanting these to horn in on what makes the younglings special).
Drones are pretty flimsy, but dying from enemy fire isn't much of an event for these.
Ship cap is about 25% of normal because these aren't supposed to be like a whole new ship unlock, they're just a bonus on top of what you already get for turret (and enclave starship) research.
Drones are super, super cheap in both metal/crystal and energy.
Attack-power-wise n an individual basis they're about as strong as a normal fleet ship with 5x bonuses, making them fairly effective against the stuff with those hull types.

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, this thread was part of what prompted that

[Wingflier]

Thanks a lot for the change Keith, we really appreciate it (yes, I'm speaking for everybody. You MUST appreciate it huehuehue)

[Drjones013]

That... looks really promising! Thanks for the change, will have to see how it works in-game.

[Wanderer]

That does look tasty, and perhaps even a lot of fun.  I'll have to take those out on a test drive here shortly.

Btw, thanks for all of those changes while you're getting hammered by AVWW.  It's appreciated.

Though the number of "Inspired by Wanderer" changes in there I'm afraid may get me shot! 

Out of curiousity, for those brutal rolls, are they based on both planets, or will each of the AI HWs get that roll?  (cringes in fear a bit at the answer).

Edit:

On Diff 8+ it randomly rolls (per homeworld) between one and two picks.

I am officially afraid.  Welcome to the big leagues!

[Hearteater]

I really like this change.  It almost makes me want the Enclave ship to just be able to make drones (give it a basic drone that requires no turret unlocks just so it can always make something).  If we really need an Adv.Factory replacement, I could see something else fitting that role.

[TechSY730]

I really like this change.  It almost makes me want the Enclave ship to just be able to make drones (give it a basic drone that requires no turret unlocks just so it can always make something).  If we really need an Adv.Factory replacement, I could see something else fitting that role.

Um, these new ship options are on top of their existing functionality (a mobile shipyard).

However, I would also like to see a basic drone. Maybe make it even more pathetic than the unlocked drones, with no bonus to any hull type, but doesn't require any knowledge.

EDIT: Oh wait, yea you stated that you would like to maybe refactor these things to be about these drones, and remove the shipyard functionality. Sorry, misread that.
I don't support removing their mobile shipyard ability, but I still support the basic drone idea.

[Wingflier]

In reference to my post here (http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,10767.msg107013.html#msg107013), I still think it would be best if the MKIV Enclaves didn't force you to pay the cost of a factory - simply that they couldn't build without a captured factory somewhere in the galaxy. 

Forcing you to pay the ridiculous knowledge cost of these, to replace a function which you probably already have, doesn't seem worth it to me.

I think there should be a MK5 Enclave if you want to skip factories altogether, which would justify its high knowledge cost.

[TechSY730]

In reference to my post here (http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,10767.msg107013.html#msg107013), I still think it would be best if the MKIV Enclaves didn't force you to pay the cost of a factory - simply that they couldn't build without a captured factory somewhere in the galaxy. 

Forcing you to pay the ridiculous knowledge cost of these, to replace a function which you probably already have, doesn't seem worth it to me.

I think there should be a MK5 Enclave if you want to skip factories altogether, which would justify its high knowledge cost.

Ooh, I like that idea. Make Mk. IV enclaves only able to build Mk. IV ships when you have at lease one advanced factory (or an advanced factory foldout), but give it a much saner knowledge cost. Then make Mk. V able to build Mk. IV without an advanced factory, and give it the insane knowledge cost (basically, current Mk. IV cost - new Mk. IV cost)
I would vote this up if we could vote up individual forum posts.