Author Topic: AI War: The Zenith Remnant Expansion Pricing  (Read 6152 times)

Offline RCIX

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AI War: The Zenith Remnant Expansion Pricing
« on: September 17, 2009, 06:57:19 pm »
This may be a little early but i wanted to know how much you were thinking about charging for the expansion because i want to know how much to set aside so i can get in on the beta! :D :D :D
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 08:40:06 am by x4000 »
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Offline x4000

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Re: Expansion Pricing
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2009, 07:12:06 pm »
That's a good question.  While nothing official has been set yet, my current thinking is $12.99.  It's kind of a middleground between $10 (too cheap), and $15 (3/4 of the price of the main game just seems like too much).

The exact features of the expansion won't be finalized until the expansion is basically done (since players are going to have the ability to help contribute and shape that to a degree through the beta process), but what will definitely be included:

- Multiplayer lobbies via Gamespy (this will also be available for free to existing base game customers, but will be considered part of the expansion).
- 80+ new ships at minimum, but most likely more than that.
- At least 10 new bonus ship classes, but most likely more than that.
- Some very large ships.
- Zinth alien race, which is a minor new faction that the players can interact with in certain (largely TBD) ways.
- At least 12 new AI styles.
- Some game-extending new mechanics, mostly through the new ships.  Some of these are TBD, some you can see in the Future Expansions list.  Some are still just in my head. ;)
- A goodly number of new capturable ship types that will be seeded throughout the galaxy, adding much more variety to maps.  Chief among these, perhaps, will be the new Golem ships.
- At least four new galaxy map styles, not counting variants like Simple vs Hubs.
- Over 30 minutes of new original music to be added into the mix with the existing tracks.


So, as you can see, the main focus of the expansion is going to be content, content, content -- expanding the game in a big way through that.  Enhancements to the interface, the AI, etc, will always be free to all customers, although some might be said to be "from X expansion" like the multiplayer lobbies will be, etc.  But basically, I never want players to have to buy an expansion in order to just make their existing content work as well as possible.  People should buy the expansion because they want more, not because they want their existing stuff to be better.

This will open for preorder sometime in October, most likely in mid-October.  This is NOT a true beta, I should note, because players are going to have access basically from the start, and trial mode versions of this will also be available even for people who don't preorder.  When the game opens for preorder, there will most likely be a few new bonus ship classes and maybe a new AI style or two, and not a whole lot more -- this is because I want players to be able to comment right from the get-go.  Then, over a (hopefully) 2 month period of time, the rest will be developed out in the fashion you are accustomed to seeing with what we are currently doing for the 2.0 version.  

If it needs more time in order to be fully baked, it will get more time, but I will be shocked if it takes more than 3-4 months at the outside.  And I am hoping it takes closer to 2, but you never know.  Looking at what all has been done with the game in the last two months, though, I think most people will agree my goal is pretty reasonable, even though we are also going to be working on the puzzle game called Feedback simultaneously (that will have a similar preorder process, but not until it is a bit further along in development -- probably not until November or December on that one, and it's development will not be complete until likely sometime in Q1 or Q2 of next year).

This was such a good question... it needs a sticky! (Man, too many stickies, but so it goes).
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 07:23:04 pm by x4000 »
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Offline darke

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Re: Expansion Pricing
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2009, 07:35:15 pm »
W00t.

And yeah, nothing sounds too infeasible in the time-line. After all it only took a couple of weeks to completely rebuild the entire economics infrastructure of the game, how hard can it be to just add a few more (ok, a lot more) shiny-things? ;)


Offline x4000

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Re: Expansion Pricing
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2009, 07:40:14 pm »
And yeah, nothing sounds too infeasible in the time-line. After all it only took a couple of weeks to completely rebuild the entire economics infrastructure of the game, how hard can it be to just add a few more (ok, a lot more) shiny-things? ;)

Haha, yeah.  The main complication is the interaction of the development timeline for the expansion, for the game Feedback, plus whatever else is needing to be done with AI War in the interim (not all that much, hopefully, aside from balance/bugfixes, and the free DLC with a few ships and such every couple of weeks).  So we'll see how things turn out, but it should work out well in any case.  Differently than I am currently expecting, I'm sure, but isn't that always the way?
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Offline RCIX

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Re: Expansion Pricing
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2009, 07:52:32 pm »
Cool! i was expecting something much closer to 20 so that's a nice surprise for me, i'll start saving right away... ;) :D
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Offline x4000

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Re: Expansion Pricing
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2009, 07:55:07 pm »
Cool!  My feeling is that expansions should be cheaper than the base game, so even $15 felt like too much.
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Offline Echo35

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Re: Expansion Pricing
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2009, 07:56:41 pm »
That's the good thing about content. Its much easier to add more stuff than say, change the entire economy.

Offline x4000

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Re: Expansion Pricing
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2009, 07:59:25 pm »
That's the good thing about content. Its much easier to add more stuff than say, change the entire economy.

Exactly!  And, presuming that the main game components are working well enough, the payoff for players is so much larger, too.  Granted everyone appreciated the new economy, and I'm glad it was done, but adding more content has so much more of an excitement factor to it.  For me as much as anyone, I can't wait to see more bonus ship types.  I've been using the existing ones for a lot longer than anyone else here, and while they aren't getting old for me per se, I'm certainly ready to work with something new. ;)
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Offline Haagenti

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Re: Expansion Pricing
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2009, 10:42:18 am »
I don't really care about the price.

Currently AI War runs at about $0.10 per hour of enjoyment for me, which I consider to be rather cheap.

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Offline Admiral

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Re: Expansion Pricing
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2009, 10:58:26 am »
I'm with The Haag at this point. The price is irrelevant up to and including equal to the original purchase price.

In fact, and I can't believe I'm saying this... $20 might now be too little for the base game.

My thoughts: Post expansion:

$30 base game
$20 expansion
$45 "all in one" pricing

Pre-expansion release:

$20 base game
$10 pre-purchase up until 1/2 the expansion is done
$13 or $15 pre-purchase up until final release

The game is an incredible value (hours played per dollar).

In the alternative, I'd say use my suggested pre-expansion pricing the whole time.

Additionally, to keep the more price conscious consumers able to purchase, make sure to do a 33-50% off sale at least once a month on one of the game vendors if you use my post-expansion pricing.

Cheers!

Offline x4000

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Re: Expansion Pricing
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2009, 11:36:49 am »
I appreciate the sentiment -- truly -- but the fact remains that increasing the price of a game is never going to move more units.  When we go on sale, for instance, we see a 1000% or more increase in sales (no joke).  This is pretty consistent with most indie developers selling online. 

Do I feel like AI War is an unusually, ridiculously good value for the money when it comes to players who will play it a lot?  Absolutely -- and in many respects I like that, I think games in general are a bit too expensive in the main (I understand the costs of developing AAA titles, of course, but if I ran a AAA studio I would handle the finances, asset reuse, and team management vastly differently from the industry norm).

Our name recognition is getting higher and higher, but we're still the new kid on the block, and that requires people to actually take a chance on a semi-unknown developer.  For them to want to do that, the price barrier can't be too high.  I know that the diehard fans would pay a lot more, and I'm grateful for that sentiment, but for someone who has only heard bits about the game, or is already on the fence, a higher price is not going to do Arcen any favors.

I've also heard from one large distribution channel (one of the two who will be carrying AI War within a month or so, but must remain nameless now), that basically our price is already at the top end of what they are comfortable with for indie games -- at the top end of what sells.  This is not an unfair statement on their part, or a reflection of anything insidious with them, it's simply a reflection of the market.  They've seen what prices move units, and they shared that knowledge, which I am grateful for. 

Fact is, 40-50% of our total units sold have been at a discount.  This is actually a lower percentage than a lot of indie developers from what I can tell, a fact of which I am proud and which I think speaks to the positive coverage and the quality of the game, but still.  The economy is bad, there are a ton of titles on the market, and the big-name brands get a lot more recognition and automatic-ish purchases than new games do.

So, would I raise prices on future titles, once we're better known?  I hope I don't have to.  Using the same techniques I've already mentioned as for how I'd run a AAA studio, I plan to keep Arcen lean and mean, with a continuously high output (of high quality), without skyrocketing my own costs.  A lot of that is internal finances that I don't really want to get into here, but basically if the games are reasonably popular then we'll be able to make it just fine, since we're fast, efficient, and careful with money.  But if the games are not able to reach a certain level of popularity, a certain number of units sold, then having a higher per-unit price isn't going to help overmuch, anyway.  Our big goal is increasing sales tenfold or more, not squeezing out every last dime from individual sales.  Hopefully, the co-op nature of the game, etc, etc, will help give us a lot of residual sales over the long term (we are already seeing this to some degree).

Personally, I think that the fact that we have some people who are feeling like the price is way too low, and a vendor feeling like it is a tad on the high end, means that we're close to the sweet spot.  I'm not looking to make a multibillion dollar company out of Arcen, I am just looking for long-term stability, competitive or better salaries and benefits for all staff, and the ability for all of us to keep doing what we want to do, which is make more games that lots of people can enjoy.  We'll live or die by the popularity of these early games, which means we need as many people to try, and then hopefully buy, as possible.  I think we have a good shot, but that plays right into my reasoning for not upping prices.

Cheers! :)
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Expansion Pricing
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2009, 10:12:40 am »
That expansion would be more than worth $20.  I gladly paid $20 for the Space Rangers 2 expansion even though it was the same cost as the main game (and honestly wasn't that much of an expansion, but it added a few really neat things and I felt the makers deserved more than $20 for the base game).

But the psychological impact of the numbers on the potential buyers is pretty important for Arcen's sales and thus future.  I'm no expert, but $19.99 is a big watershed line for a lot of people between something they'll buy on an impulse (no pun intended) and something that gets much more scrutiny.  I don't think anything would be gained by increasing the base game past $20.

But for the expansion it's kinda tricky to say: who's in the buyer market for the expansion anyway?  Lines like the $20 one are much more important for sight-unseen buyers; I have to assume that the main market for the expansion is people who've already played the game a fair bit ;)  But sometimes seeing an expansion out for a game is a good motivation to go take a look for the first time; it's tricky to say.

I'd say $12-$13 is a decent point for an expansion for psychological reasons.  I hope this doesn't come out the wrong way, but one thing to do is break up your total planned expansion content into chunks where that price makes sense.  Meaning more expansions rather than stuffing everything you can into one.  On the other hand you probably don't want to go the Sims route.

Honestly I think you guys will do great, Arcen is fast becoming my favorite dev, at least :)
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Offline Echo35

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Re: Expansion Pricing
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2009, 05:46:49 pm »
Do I feel like AI War is an unusually, ridiculously good value for the money when it comes to players who will play it a lot?  Absolutely -- and in many respects I like that, I think games in general are a bit too expensive in the main (I understand the costs of developing AAA titles, of course, but if I ran a AAA studio I would handle the finances, asset reuse, and team management vastly differently from the industry norm).

This is why I rarely buy Single Player games anymore. I'm sick of dropping $50 on a game that lasts 10 hours and then you can't do anything with it.

Offline CautiousChaos

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Re: Expansion Pricing
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2009, 09:59:34 am »
I'm with Keith on the $19.99 tipping point.  If I'm on the fence about a game or only casually interested in a title seeing a price tag of $24.99 takes it off my list for consideration.  If it is a title that I played in demo for a significant period of time and really enjoyed it, that $24.99 price tag still puts some reservation in my buying consideration. 

I have the discretionary income to purchase games at much higher price points, but my expectations with indie titles is that you're not supposed to get the big-ticket high-budget experience you might get when you buy a mainstream title.  To be quite honest, the first version of AI War lined up with those expectations.  It's a much different, and better (in every way) game than when I first purchased it.  That's why I would spend a little more on the expansion, knowing that I'm getting top-notch support, an active forum community, and patches/enhancements like crazy.  But for the gamer new to the title, I'm afraid that the $19.99 barrier is still in place.

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Offline x4000

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Re: Expansion Pricing
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2009, 10:42:09 am »
But the psychological impact of the numbers on the potential buyers is pretty important for Arcen's sales and thus future.  I'm no expert, but $19.99 is a big watershed line for a lot of people between something they'll buy on an impulse (no pun intended) and something that gets much more scrutiny.  I don't think anything would be gained by increasing the base game past $20.

Yep, totally agree.  Increasing the price any more wouldn't deter the diehards, but it would seriously crimp sales to a lot of folks and so would ultimately lead to a lower return for Arcen.

But for the expansion it's kinda tricky to say: who's in the buyer market for the expansion anyway?  Lines like the $20 one are much more important for sight-unseen buyers; I have to assume that the main market for the expansion is people who've already played the game a fair bit ;)  But sometimes seeing an expansion out for a game is a good motivation to go take a look for the first time; it's tricky to say.

The main market is definitely existing players, but as you say this can also be a driver of sales of the base game, too.  It's also another way to get more publicity, as expansions are reviewed as separate items in magazines/websites/blogs, and they are listed as a separate item on distribution sites.  In the case of reviews, the expansion really needs to be exceptional to get a whole lot of notice.  Sure, people will review pretty much any expansion to a game that was popular enough, but so often the response is sort of "meh, if you really like the base game, this is for you, but otherwise..."

AI War has improved so much since a lot of places reviewed the original base game, and I'd really like to capitalize on that in reviews with the expansion.  So the expansion should be amazing in every way, providing an experience that is both more and different from the base game -- something that reviewers will hopefully deem such a good deal that even sort of casual players of the game would do well to consider it.

Of course, that's also simply the sort of expansions I like to buy, and where I'd like to see the game go.  But my point is simply that income from the expansion itself is not my only concern when designing and pricing the expansion.  It's also, like all expansions for any game, a publicity tool to help create another round of sales of the base game in addition.  For someone buying both at once (as I tend to like to, myself, when I am really sold on a game), there are certain price expectations for the cost of the expansion versus the base game.

I'd say $12-$13 is a decent point for an expansion for psychological reasons.  I hope this doesn't come out the wrong way, but one thing to do is break up your total planned expansion content into chunks where that price makes sense.  Meaning more expansions rather than stuffing everything you can into one.  On the other hand you probably don't want to go the Sims route.

Well, bear in mind that my cost-to-benefit ratio for producing goods is different from the cost-to-benefit ratio for players in buying the same goods.  This is true for any game company, of course, but since I don't have any stockholders to please I have a lot more latitude to do what I like.

In general, producing new ships for AI War is fairly inexpensive for me to do, in the main.  It's certainly a lot less costly than a lot of the things that I give away for free, such as the revamped economy, all the new art over the last few releases, etc. 

This disconnect would be rather troubling to your average investor, but for me it makes sense -- with all of the content in 2.0, I'm investing in future sales of the base game, as well as making the game more attractive to large distribution channels (we landed the biggest deal solely because of our 2.0 updates, incidentally).  So this makes sense as an investment for Arcen, because the return is likely to far outstrip my actual investment if things go at all as I hope they will.  And for players, of course that is a huge win because they get a LOT of stuff for free, so everyone is happy.

Then, with the expansions, I'm mostly focusing on things that are easy-ish to code, but which have a huge impact on the scope of the game.  Thus, in the end, I wind up doing a lot less work for the expansion than I did for the 2.0 release (including all the releases since 1.001 before that), but actually charging something for the expansion.  Go figure.  But, because it takes less resources to produce these sorts of thing, I tend to try to pack a LOT of it in there, to really give players a value for their money.  It's more value for less money compared to what other developers would provide, but I'm happy to do that because it doesn't cost me all that much and it makes everyone (including me) happy to see the game make such leaps forward.

This disconnect between the cost to produce goods and the cost for customers to buy them is something that is often a challenge.  The two general responses in this industry are:
A) If a good is expensive to produce for a platform, pass that cost on to the customer.
B) If a good is cheaper to produce for a platform, then hooray!  Bank the difference as profit.

As an indie developer I can never have the A situation simply because our overhead is lower than a AAA studio no matter how you cut it.  You could argue that I could have a situation like A, where the cost to develop a game is greater than the price point at which an indie game can be sold, but that has yet to be an issue, and if it ever were a problem I would hope to use overflows from sales of other titles to make up the difference.

For the issue of B, that is a tougher one.  Of course, I'm hoping to make profit just like any other business.  But there's also no call for charging $3 for a new saddle for your mount (as in the famous Oblivion example), or for being stingy with content just because everyone else is.  Fact is, as a company we are very fast at making high quality products, and I think that we're not the only ones that should benefit from this.  Sure, we can use that to make more products in less time, which results in a higher overall return, but why not also use that to pack more into each of those titles, thus giving players an even better value for the money they spend?  That, to me, seems like it can only lead to good things, such as increased customer loyalty, more excitement about our products, and better word of mouth and reviews.  That's my rationale, anyway!

Honestly I think you guys will do great, Arcen is fast becoming my favorite dev, at least :)

Thanks! :)
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