Author Topic: AI War state of the game  (Read 45252 times)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #195 on: November 11, 2012, 12:39:55 pm »
Ah the 5HW start, that's probably what's doing it.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #196 on: November 11, 2012, 12:42:27 pm »
I'd like to nerf harvesters again, but from what I'm seeing it would just trade back this problem for the older one it was intended to address.  Some people would be happier, some people less pleased.  Not really a net gain.

What was it intended to address?
Players having to wait so long for resources that netflix and hulu were common coping mechanisms.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #197 on: November 11, 2012, 12:48:25 pm »
I'd like to nerf harvesters again, but from what I'm seeing it would just trade back this problem for the older one it was intended to address.  Some people would be happier, some people less pleased.  Not really a net gain.

What was it intended to address?
Players having to wait so long for resources that netflix and hulu were common coping mechanisms.
But don't the resource distribution nodes, Econ Command Stations, and the game speed + function exist for that reason?

I'm constantly told that the reason I have 999,999 resources all the time is because I'm not playing on a high enough difficulty.  Yet I'm approaching maximum difficulty and I don't see that it makes any difference.

I'd like to use that same argument against these people:  If you keep having to wait around for your whole fleet to rebuild - play on a lower difficulty or stop losing your whole fleet.

That makes more sense to me than the inverse.
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #198 on: November 11, 2012, 12:53:55 pm »
Players having to wait so long for resources that netflix and hulu were common coping mechanisms.

Which I think, in the end, speaks to the underlying problem: that blob tactics are so overpoweringly good that having anything less than a full fleet is recipe for disaster.  So the "fix" was to allow refleeting faster, which leads to the problem that blobbing is even more encouraged, because, well, you're wasting resources one way or the other...

Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #199 on: November 11, 2012, 01:11:20 pm »
Hang on.

Isn't the dominance of "blobbing" sort of implied by Lanchester's laws?
In many other RTSs, this is averted by making it such that you opponent can take out key structures before you have enough time to "blob", thus pressuring you to do the same.
Although the AI could be more aggressive more often to simulate that, it can't go too far or else it would violate the "player controls the tempo" design goal of the game.

Offline zoutzakje

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #200 on: November 11, 2012, 01:18:18 pm »
I honestly think the game is fine as it is. And I don't mind putting restrictions on myself. A game is designed bad when it's not interesting to play at all and when the mechanics are not working properly or add no value to the game imo. But when the challenge of a game is gone... there is nothing you can do about that except putting restrictions on yourself. If you play a game long enough, any game really, you'll become so good at it that it's no longer challenging. That's normal. I don't mind blobbing being the main tactic in AI war, as long as I still have fun with it and can get some serious challenge out the game. And I personally still can.
Take The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess for example. Still one of my favourite games. After completing the game once or twice (including the optional Cave of Ordeals dungeon), I thought replaying the game again would be too easy. So I put some restrictions on myself. First I decided I would no longer get any heart pieces or containers. I would clear the game with just 3 hearts. Furthermore I wouldn't learn any of the skills (except the inevitable first one). That was fun, but still not exactly the challenge i was looking for. So the game after I decided I also wouldn't get a new shield after my wooden one burned. Now that was a challenge and I play the game like this everytime I feel like playing it again. and I'm sure even this would get easy after a while.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Twilight Princess. It's a great game with a good story, good music, good gameplay. It just lacks challenge.
When you started playing AI war Wingflier, did you think the game was too easy? I don't think anyone here thought the game was too easy when he/she just started out. And by using evil Minor Factions you actually already are putting restrictions on yourself. You make the game harder with them, causing certain tactics that normally would have worked to be irrelevant now or harder to execute.

I'll stop blobbing blabbing now :P

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #201 on: November 11, 2012, 01:23:21 pm »
Just seems a little silly.  If you have to place artificial restraints on yourself in order to make the game fun, it reeks of bad design.
No, it reeks of "personal taste". Some people don't want to play 10/10 with Hybrids. So they don't. Aren't those artifical restrictions? Why should I restrict myself by playing on a lower difficulty?

It's a strawman, but it makes about as much sense, tbh.
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Offline Aeson

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #202 on: November 11, 2012, 01:27:42 pm »
If you can unlock all MkII ships without tanking your economy by building them before expanding the first time that's a definite proof that the human economy is really damn OP. It used to be that you couldn't even build a cap of bombers or frigates without tanking your starting economy so you had to expand before you had your caps built up.

Unlocking all Mark II ships and building them does tank your economy. That's why I said the early game was slower for a full-military or compromise opening as compared to a full-economy opening, and also why I prefer a compromise between full-military and full-economy openings. And if you have the patience, then no, you don't need to expand before your caps are built, though it's probably a good idea to do so. Just start out with the Mark Is and do something while your more expensive Mark IIs are building, and try your best to avoid heavy losses because you don't have the economy to replace them quickly. Once your Mark II caps are out, though, the game changes because your Mark II ships will take far lighter losses than your Mark I ships would have in the same situation - if you're careful, and avoid doing foolish things like directly challenging the special forces before you feel you have the ability to recover the losses or win that fight.

Going in for Mark II ships early on encourages a different sort of strategy than going for an economic game. With the economic game, you can afford to replace losses relatively easily and quickly, but you also have to accept much higher losses because you don't have the military strength to break through heavy resistance without sending attack waves, and you're using cheaper and weaker ships. With a purely military start, you have the ability to bring a very powerful fleet into the field and it won't take as many losses (usually - ion cannons can be a major problem, if you didn't notice them before you sent your fleet in, and minefields can be somewhat painful) as the Mark I fleet an economic opening would, because it kills enemies faster and uses tougher ships. The losses you do take, though, will take longer to replace, and if you end up losing your fleet to a poor decision, it can take a very, very long time to recover. Also, since if you open up the Mark II caps at the start of the game, once you have built your Mark I and Mark II caps, the Mark Is become relatively expendable, since they represent only a third of the fleet's strength, and are much easier to replace than the Mark II ships.

Also, I would say that blobbing isn't a strategic problem - in choosing to keep your mobile forces in one group, you've lost a bit of flexibility in exchange for local superiority, and you're relying on the defenses that you've built in order to protect your worlds (or at least delay attackers long enough for the fleet to come to the rescue). Blobbing is tactically uninteresting, but it is a choice you make on a strategic level - do you think that your defenses can hold well enough that you can take your full fleet with you everywhere you go? If yes, then the next question is whether you want to strike several targets or only one, and if you want to strike several, do you want to do so simultaneously or sequentially? Do you want to bait off the special forces (assuming they aren't crippled yet), or do you think that you'll have enough time to finish what you came to do before the special forces arrive, or that you'll bring enough firepower to accomplish your goal even if the special forces interrupt you?

I would say that the main thing encouraging strategic blobbing is more that controlling forces on separate planets is relatively difficult, rather than that it is by far the best thing to do.

Hang on.

Isn't the dominance of "blobbing" sort of implied by Lanchester's laws?
In many other RTSs, this is averted by making it such that you opponent can take out key structures before you have enough time to "blob", thus pressuring you to do the same.
Although the AI could be more aggressive more often to simulate that, it can't go too far or else it would violate the "player controls the tempo" design goal of the game.

I kind of feel like the threatfleet behavior is simulating this somewhat - if you allow threat to build up, doesn't it attack you if you move enough of your strength elsewhere for the AI to decide that it's time to go smash the player's world(s)? Although, the worlds it chooses to attack probably aren't the worlds that I consider particularly important, since a world important to me would be given as sizeable a defense force as I could afford to give it. Still, if I have few enough worlds, losing the energy collector could be painful.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #203 on: November 11, 2012, 01:30:11 pm »
I don't disagree that when a game's challenge is gone, putting restrictions on yourself is a viable option, but in most of these cases of the games you guys have listed (Twilight Princess, Mount and Blade, Oblivion, etc.), these are old games that were never really updated or modded by the developer after they were released.

Of course most old games are left in the post-release state, and never touched again.  It makes perfect sense for why you would need to place artificial restrictions on yourself since nobody else is going to do it for you.

But with AI War, a game that is constantly being updated and designed, it seems like the opposite should be true:  The player shouldn't be putting artificial restrictions on themselves to succeed, they should have to be finding new and better ways to beat the system.  Even just removing MKII and III Harvesters would completely change the dynamics of the game, and probably make the hardest difficulties impossible to beat, at least for a few weeks.  You would have to take more planets, be more careful with your fleet, do more effective raids, etc.

It seems like the current problem with AI War is not primarily with the game, but the players.  They want to play on the highest difficulties so they can feel good about themselves, but then they complain that the highest difficulties are too hard because "they have too long for my wasted fleet to rebuild" or "I need enough energy to have a Fortress on every planet without spending a dime" or "I should be able to blob my entire fleet around without a hitch".  If you want to do those things, fine!  Play on difficulty 5.  If you're doing them on difficulty 9, and it isn't working out, the game shouldn't have to be changed for you.

@Moonshine Fox - it has nothing to do with personal taste.

The reason that difficulties EXIST is so that people don't have to put artificial restrictions on themselves.  If the game was designed for people to put artificial restrictions on themselves, there would be 1 difficulty, and once you beat that, you'd have to start figuring out new and ridiculous ways to challenge yourself.  It is logical that a game with 50+ levels of difficulty is designed to be challenging for all skill levels of players.  Otherwise, let's remove them all and just have 1.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 01:37:52 pm by Wingflier »
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #204 on: November 11, 2012, 01:34:15 pm »
I'd like to nerf harvesters again, but from what I'm seeing it would just trade back this problem for the older one it was intended to address.  Some people would be happier, some people less pleased.  Not really a net gain.

What was it intended to address?
Players having to wait so long for resources that netflix and hulu were common coping mechanisms.

Instead of having the players search for fun have the fun come to them!

Offline chemical_art

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #205 on: November 11, 2012, 01:39:13 pm »
Even just removing MKII and III Harvesters would completely change the dynamics of the game, and probably make the hardest difficulties impossible to beat, at least for a few weeks.  You would have to take more planets, be more careful with your fleet, do more effective raids, etc.

I haven't unlocked harvesters in months and can win without cheese on 9.0 pretty consistently. It's not that big of an impact, it delays your offenses yes, but that K you spend doesn't magically disappear and would go into other things, like a military that wouldn't suffer as great losses or improved command stations (of any sort, even MK III military stations still provide excellent resources).
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #206 on: November 11, 2012, 01:42:53 pm »


The reason that difficulties EXIST is so that people don't have to put artificial restrictions on themselves.  If the game was designed for people to put artificial restrictions on themselves, there would be 1 difficulty, and once you beat that, you'd have to start figuring out new and ridiculous ways to challenge yourself.  It is logical that a game with 50+ levels of difficulty is designed to be challenging for all skill levels of players.  Otherwise, let's remove them all and just have 1.

Difficulties themselves are artificial restrictions. Why wouldn't you play on the highest difficulty if you didn't want the AI artificially gimped?  How is it that having multiple "overall" difficulties settings (because 1 - 10 is the most encompassing difficulty modifier, but not the only one) somehow worst then one overall difficulty level?
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #207 on: November 11, 2012, 01:51:43 pm »
To answer Winglier's earlier questions.

I still use guerrilla tactics.

I still care about multipliers and ship type matchups.

*TODO fill in more detail about the cases I do when am not on my phone...

Offline Wingflier

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #208 on: November 11, 2012, 01:52:48 pm »


The reason that difficulties EXIST is so that people don't have to put artificial restrictions on themselves.  If the game was designed for people to put artificial restrictions on themselves, there would be 1 difficulty, and once you beat that, you'd have to start figuring out new and ridiculous ways to challenge yourself.  It is logical that a game with 50+ levels of difficulty is designed to be challenging for all skill levels of players.  Otherwise, let's remove them all and just have 1.

Difficulties themselves are artificial restrictions. Why wouldn't you play on the highest difficulty if you didn't want the AI artificially gimped?  How is it that having multiple "overall" difficulties settings (because 1 - 10 is the most encompassing difficulty modifier, but not the only one) somehow worst then one overall difficulty level?
Difficulty levels allow you, as a player, to get better over time so you can continue increasing it.

It's the reason why a High School Freshman Basketball player can't just jump into the NBA.  He wouldn't get much better, he would just get stomped over, and over, and over again until he probably quit.  He must tackle successively more difficult challenges until he gets to that level (if he ever does).

The same goes with difficulties.  They aren't artificial restrictions, they are put there as rungs on a ladder.  I think AI War's current "ladder" just doesn't go very high.  It's not that difficult, I'm not even that good of a player, I'm not doing anything an AI couldn't do, I'm just moving my blob around until I win.

I wish we could get Suzera back here, she would probably laugh at the current state of the game and call us all noobs. 

All I'm saying is that the ladder could go a lot higher than it does.  Difficulties 1-5 are basically unused as far as I can tell; why is that?  The inverse should be true, the highest difficulties should be rarely used, not the lowest ones.  That's all I'm saying.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #209 on: November 11, 2012, 02:25:29 pm »
Difficulties in AI War work like scores on IGN...