Rethinking Command Stations

[gullgotha]

I had a think about the current command station set up and how you have to destroy a current station to replace it with a higher tier or different type and i wanted to improve that design i came up with this...

Modular Command Stations

Every Command station is of a basic design now with no special economic/military or logistical capabilities. These basic stations now have a "slot" that an economic/military or logistic module can be built, that provide the current equivalent of special abilities that come with being a economic/military/logistic command station.

From a lore point of view think of it as having a basic station, then you attach/upgrade what equipment that station needs at the time, such as building armor and weapons on a station to make it a military station, or advanced warp sensors on a station to make it a logistics station. As your needs evolve, instead of scrapping a station you would remove the unneeded parts and replace them with the newly needed parts, i have just simplified this process by calling them "modules" to be attached to the station. This make it much easier from a game play point of view because you can just replace the module on the station and not scrap the station itself.

As you unlock higher tiers of basic space stations this allows for larger (more advanced) modules to be installed, more powerful modules would require more space but the best part of this change is that it allows for hybrid stations to appear. Imagine a Economic station with the speed boost of a logistics station, filling the needs supplying your empire but also creating highways for your ships to move around you empire faster.

Right now there are a limited number of hybrids available but with this change it allows the Dev more flexibility in creating new types of command station modules for us to use, imagine different modules appearing like specialized weapon systems or planetary bonuses, for example replacing a military module with an EMP module that give the command station the ability to set off a small EMP every hour that paralyzes enemy ships for a few seconds.

In any case that's enough of the idea, now for the real details

The current 10 different types of command station will be replaced with a standard 3 tier command station system.

Mk1 Command stations are a standard command station acts the same in every way to a normal station, just without the military/economic/logistic bonuses. This station has one module slot, after you research the appropriate module you can install it onto this station

Mk.2 Command stations are a standard Mk.2 command station just without the military/economic/logistic bonuses. This station has two module slots, after you research the apropriate module/s you can install a larger module on the station, or two lower tier modules making this a hybrid.

Mk.3 Command stations are a standard Mk.3 command station just without the military/economic/logistic bonuses. This station has three module slots, after you research the apropriate module/s you can install the largest modules on this station, or a hybrid of the lower tier modules.

The current 10 different types of command station types will be replace with 10 different modules to be researched and installed as you see fit on your stations.

Logistics Command module Mk.1 - provides the same bonuses as a current tier 1 logistics command station (occupies 1 modular slot)
Logistics Command module Mk.2 - provides the same bonuses as a current tier 2 logistics command station (occupies 2 modular slots)
Logistics Command module Mk.3 - provides the same bonuses as a current tier 3 logistics command station (occupies 3 modular slots)

Economic Command module Mk.1 - provides the same bonuses as a current tier 1 economic command station (occupies 1 modular slot)
Economic Command module Mk.2 - provides the same bonuses as a current tier 2 economic command station (occupies 2 modular slots)
Economic Command module Mk.3 - provides the same bonuses as a current tier 3 economic command station (occupies 3 modular slots)

Military Command module Mk.1 - provides the same bonuses as a current tier 1 military command station (occupies 1 modular slot)
Military Command module Mk.2 - provides the same bonuses as a current tier 2 military command station (occupies 2 modular slots)
Military Command module Mk.3 - provides the same bonuses as a current tier 3 military command station (occupies 3 modular slots)

Radar Jammer module - Provides the same bonuses as the current radar Jammer command station (occupies 1 modular slot, can only be installed on a Mk.1 command station, only 5 can be operational at one time)

I have included a more detailed version, including abilities, research costs and caps in a text file below.

Advantages of the new system
* The ability to create hybrid Stations, that serve multiple purposes and provides more tactical options.
* You no longer have to destroy a station to replace it, be it with a higher grade or new type.
* Makes more sense from a lore point of view, why destroy a whole station when you are just upgrading parts.
* Allows for the creation of more module types down the line

Disadvantages of the new system
* Runs the risk of violating caps (Thanks Malkiel)
* It would make logistical command station modules overpowered if you can have 100% additional speed boost with just one of three modules (Thanks giftgruen)
* With any new change.. Balancing, as pointed out by Malkiel and giftfruen

In regards to balancing, i have introduced an 18 ship cap to both Mk.2 and Mk.3 command stations, i think this is a good balance because even though you might have Mk.3 command stations with 3 Mk.1 modules on them, they will never be as powerful as Mk.3 command stations with Mk.3 modules on them. But i think this will need some fine tuning on it, maybe a reduction what do you think guys?

Also there could also be a downtime on replacing modules to go with the current system of downtime when replacing stations, what are your thoughts on this guys?

In regards to the modules themselves for time saving i just bashed the modules together when writing up the hybrids, whatever had the better ability came out on top, so a military/economic station had the best metal production of either module, or the best metal salvage of each separate module. I found that adding them together would make them imbalanced, but now i am think i might get the average value of both modules to make for the most balanced version of the station. What do you think guys?

In the case of radar Jammer's i have just put limitations on it, which is all fine and good from a balanced game play point of view, but it doesn't make sense in my system that a Mk.1 module cant be installed on higher mark station. My original thought was to make the radar jammer module take up three slots, but then you would need to unlock mk2 and mk3 stations to get the radar jammer going, which would add 6000 more research cost to getting a radar jammer. My second thought was to just keep the radar jammer as its own station and then just say that any system containing a radar jammer can not contain a command station but like anything you want simplicity and it to be streamlined, can anyone come up with a better idea here?

In any case that is my thoughts on redesigning the command stations for the future of the game. I would very much like to hear your thoughts on the matter, agree? disagree? think that i am crazy? any ideas for balance or to make it better?

have a good one

gull

I would also like to point out that Gudamor came up with a more extreme version of my modular system which you can see at
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=15365

[Gudamor]

EXTREME! 

I supported this idea in mantis and I will do the same here.

The tldr of my other post is to kill the idea of military logistics economy stations and just have many modules.

[Tridus]

More thoughts later, but my initial reaction is that you just made one of the most basic and essential buildings in the game far more complicated. How is a newbie supposed to understand how to use this the first time they play?

Not knowing how to really customize a riot ship is one thing, but command stations are necessary for the game to work. Adding UI complexity to them is not something I think is a good idea.

[gullgotha]

@ Tridus

I could understand that suspicion, since there are no in depth tutorials, and i did not provide one in any way

so with a five minute think on it i came up with the following ways that might help a new player to this new system of using modular stations,

When you create a colony ship, and then convert that colony ship into a new station, on the tool tip, it has a reference that it is a modular station and that upgrades can be found at the research tab.

when you highlight a system with a command station with no modules installed it adds something to the notes saying that the command station in this system currently has no modules installed.

The mk.1 modules of each type economic/logistic/military are already unlocked, maybe in the ui where you would select what modules to install would have icons for the higher tiers "greyed out" but you can hover over their icon to see what upgrades do and how much they cost reasearch-wise

You could also have a setting that auto installs economic or logistic or military modules on a command station. You could even have it that the standard install includes an economic module (for those people who don't care what is installed) and that if you want to change it, you have to change it at the station or in the planet/galaxy specific menu screens.

Its basically a work around to replacing stations when your upgrade or change them, that leaves a window open to other options like new station types/modes it may be a little more complex then the current system but i don't think is such a complex move that people cannot pick it up with the right tool tips and prompts to read. also i am sure that the dev team have a few tricks up their sleeves to show off new content/mechanics that i cant even think of.

[Kaerwek]

I support this idea.

Currently I've found the command stations a bit m'eh. I typically always build the Military one, and don't really understand the why we have caps on command stations (are they really that overpowered?). Then again, I've not yet reserached anything else but the Mk II Militarty station.

[Tridus]

Alright. Here's what I don't like:

1. It adds complexity to a core thing. I already talked about that, but you're making command stations (which newbies need to be able to use without getting confused) more complicated. That's bad. It might be forgivable, except...

2. You're not actually accomplishing anything.

This is the killer for me. Under your proposal, your mk I stations are identical to the current ones in every way except setting them up is more complicated.

You can only have one module, and your options are identical to what we already have. Nothing has been gained except UI complexity.

At mk II it can be different, assuming you want mk I level upgrades and don't want the warp jammer. If you want mk II level stats, it's again identical to what we already have. Ditto for mk III.


The more complicated version of the idea on mantis doesn't have some of those problems, but it instead turns building a command station into something like building a Spire City. I really don't think that's a good idea for a core, key structure to the functioning of the game. I adore Spire Cities, but they're not a base thing that you need in order to play the game. We can't expect someone new to the game to want to expand to their first planet and then have to figure out which of sixteen different abilities they should be using on their command station.

I'm also not sure there's any limited modules in the game the way you describe, so that might have to be added. And if I stick a mk II logistics module on a mk III station somewhere, run out of modules, and then want to destory that one to put it on a new station somewhere else, how do I find the ones I've already built? Will need UI for that too.

I just find this to be a big boost in complexity for a negligable boost in things that improve or add to gameplay.

[Draco18s]

Looking over the idea here, I have to agree with Tridus.

Its only in the mixing and matching of Mark 1 modules on a Mark II or Mark III station that this even gets interesting (and generally, not that good).  Every other option is exactly what we already have.

[keith.lamothe]

Batting the idea around is fine, to see what comes out of it, but bear in mind that making the normal command stations modular is off the table per Chris (has been discussed more than once in the past), and I agree with him that it would be introducing too much complexity into that core of a mechanic.

[Fleet Unity]

Batting the idea around is fine, to see what comes out of it, but bear in mind that making the normal command stations modular is off the table per Chris (has been discussed more than once in the past), and I agree with him that it would be introducing too much complexity into that core of a mechanic.

I agree, why not just add other command stations and leave the normal ones alone, I mean the AI has many types of command stations to use it would be nice to have more to choose from not sure how hard it would be to program or balance.

[NickAragua]

I would like to see a hybrid logistics/military station - my play style necessitates mass usage of logistics stations or zenith space-time manipulators for rapid fleet movement in my territory, thus I only build military stations in isolated systems and economic stations never.

The idea of modular command stations is ok as long as the UI allows for the construction of the "standard" command stations as they currently are and shuffles the modular aspect off to the side somewhere so that uh, "less detail oriented" players don't get confused by it.

[Aklyon]

Econ III stations have a use with the new turrets from a theorycrafting standpoint (two planets worth of energy while only needing to protect one planet makes it easier to pay for the turret cost of defending the station that doesn't shoot back or play with ship speeds), but the other stations are still better in practice unless you have extra K, I would say.

[Tridus]

I would like to see a hybrid logistics/military station - my play style necessitates mass usage of logistics stations or zenith space-time manipulators for rapid fleet movement in my territory, thus I only build military stations in isolated systems and economic stations never.

That would be far too powerful unless one set of its abilities were nerfed into the ground.

Command stations that are awesome at everything defeat the point of having more than one of them.

[PokerChen]

 I believe it's doable, and does not have to be too complex from the user side.
 The main thing that needs to happen is that colony ships be given a intuitive default template with the 10 primary types, that you can directly use. The question is whether one can re-arrange templates - the default 3x3 and the mark-levels are intuitively clear, but the long line of templates on a spire shipyard are not so clear. The upgrading UI is also way too complicated to put on a command center: e.g. Spire cities start out the game with a certain setup, and gets upgraded later as you unlock. However, like the Champions this upgrade doesn't really need a separate template, just a button to upgrade to the highest mark available on that slot. Due to this annoying complication, I never build a spire city until I can kit it out with mark-II everything, at the very least.

 However, as is said, Chris is not willing to complicate the simple core design. If people really want hybrid command centers, what about stripping out the log/eco/mil functions and place them into "foldouts"? (Extensions that are separate objects in space just like the one at the home command.) One can then try to implement a shared per-planet cap.

 That is, if you have to go to the ship design screen, it's going to be too complicated. The templated build menu on the Spire Hub is about as complicated as I'm willing to support.