AI War Beta 7.029-7.031 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!

[keith.lamothe]

Wouldn't they just break apart when hit by tractor turrets if they had a really big speed boost? /sortaphysics

Spraying the entire system with relativistic shrapnel, leaving the path clear for the tractor-immune ships. /missionaccomplished

[keith.lamothe]

if the maximum firepower you can put into a system goes down

There would probably be a revolt

More seriously, the discussions over the years definitely point to "nerfing defenses" as being something that would not be found fun.

[Tridus]

if the maximum firepower you can put into a system goes down

There would probably be a revolt

More seriously, the discussions over the years definitely point to "nerfing defenses" as being something that would not be found fun.

True of a lot of games. The WoW forums go into regular revolt over nerfs, with one popular position always being "don't nerf the strong stuff, buff the weak stuff!"

Which is great and all, except doing that creates infinite power inflation. I can't help but think that's what this is: defenses have gotten so strong that it's possible to build a system that the AI can't beat no matter what. You can solve that either by attacking the core problem (defenses can be stacked too far), or by power inflation: giving the AI the ability to simply jump to wherever it wants and changing the rules of the game.

Inevitably players will complain that they don't have enough defensive tools to guard so much more territory, and the response will be more player goodies. Then the AI will need more goodies to deal with that, and on and on we go. If the opportunity to whip out the nerf bat isn't now, when will it ever be?

[Winge]

I have to say:  in my current AAR, I'm glad that the AI still has AIP-Free Delayed Distribution Nodes Counterattack Guard Posts.  Especially when they target my home (oh hai Enclaves & Mercs!).

I never thought I'd say those words...

[TechSY730]

I'm not really a fan of the new "warp catapult", partially because I never minded the old counterattack posts.

I'd much rather see the AI try deep striking "legit" (transports or equivalent, cloaked starships, going straight for an inner planet, using raid style and or cloaked ships on focused missions, etc) before whipping out the "rule breaksing cheese" that is outside the llayers' control. At least that would still preserve defenders advantage normally at first, but still give the AI a better shot of doing real damage.


For the hacking, why not a compromise? He hacking response is some combination of current HaP and spent HaP. That way, you get some of the benefits of both systems (giving a reward for those who can take it easy and save up more, but keep the AI response appropriately increasing at least somewhat as more is done)

[keith.lamothe]

I'd much rather see the AI try deep striking "legit" (transports or equivalent, cloaked starships, going straight for an inner planet, using raid style and or cloaked ships on focused missions, etc) before whipping out the "rule breaksing cheese" that is outside the llayers' control. At least that would still preserve defenders advantage normally at first, but still give the AI a better shot of doing real damage.

Well, I can change the relay to, instead of altering wave targeting, package the waiting threat up into a bunch of special carriers that are:
- cloaked
- immune to gravity
- have the speed of raid starships
- can fly through forcefields
- are given exo-attack orders for your home command station or some other irreplaceable

That's what it would take to have a _chance_ of getting through.  Would you prefer that?  I'd just gotten done removing the cheesy flags from carriers


Anyway, I'd thought from the previous discussion of warp relays that the idea was well-received enough to at least be tried, but it seems I misunderstood.  It hasn't yet been 24 hours since they were patched in so I'll give the rest of the community (in different timezones/etc) a chance to comment but I'll probably remove the relays tomorrow and we'll just leave the chokepoints thing as-is for a while longer.

[keith.lamothe]

True of a lot of games. The WoW forums go into regular revolt over nerfs

The big difference is that here pretty much everyone actually cares about improving the game, rather than just getting their own way or engaging in recreational trolling, etc.

If the opportunity to whip out the nerf bat isn't now, when will it ever be?

When there's something like an agreement/consensus here that it should be done.  In other words, I'm not the one you need to persuade

[Lancefighter]

Well, I can change the relay to, instead of altering wave targeting, package the waiting threat up into a bunch of special carriers that are:
- cloaked
- immune to gravity
- have the speed of raid starships
- can fly through forcefields
- are given exo-attack orders for your home command station or some other irreplaceable

That's what it would take to have a _chance_ of getting through.  Would you prefer that?  I'd just gotten done removing the cheesy flags from carriers

please please no

[Fleet Unity]

Well, I can change the relay to, instead of altering wave targeting, package the waiting threat up into a bunch of special carriers that are:
- cloaked
- immune to gravity
- have the speed of raid starships
- can fly through forcefields
- are given exo-attack orders for your home command station or some other irreplaceable

That's what it would take to have a _chance_ of getting through.  Would you prefer that?  I'd just gotten done removing the cheesy flags from carriers

please please no

I agree please do not do this it does not sound fun at all!

[keith.lamothe]

Don't worry, there's not much chance of something like that doomcarrier.  It was just an example of the sort of extremity to which the AI would need to go to get through the chokepoint "normally"


Right now I'm thinking of just:
- remove the "jumping" effect of warp relays
- having a warp relay, once built, spawn additional threat (proportional to what's already waiting) to join the waiting threat.  That way it would in theory eventually have enough strength to punch through without any cheesy tricks, and/or at least make threatballs "self-dislodging"

[Aklyon]

Don't worry, there's not much chance of something like that doomcarrier.  It was just an example of the sort of extremity to which the AI would need to go to get through the chokepoint "normally"


Right now I'm thinking of just:
- remove the "jumping" effect of warp relays
- having a warp relay, once built, spawn additional threat (proportional to what's already waiting) to join the waiting threat.  That way it would in theory eventually have enough strength to punch through without any cheesy tricks, and/or at least make threatballs "self-dislodging"

So, you could either clear the threat out yourself, or it'll come for you eventually anyway? Right now I'm thinking it'll be somewhere between 'Good idea' and 'More Salvage!'

[Fleet Unity]

Don't worry, there's not much chance of something like that doomcarrier.  It was just an example of the sort of extremity to which the AI would need to go to get through the chokepoint "normally"


Right now I'm thinking of just:
- remove the "jumping" effect of warp relays
- having a warp relay, once built, spawn additional threat (proportional to what's already waiting) to join the waiting threat.  That way it would in theory eventually have enough strength to punch through without any cheesy tricks, and/or at least make threatballs "self-dislodging"

Yes that sounds better than a "Doom Carrier" this will make you have to send more ships in to clear out the system or using a Warhead, I only use warheads in extreme emergencies like over too many ships blockading you in, I usually play on X maps this is why this problem happens to me more often. 

Edit: of course this could just make a bad situation worse.

[Toranth]

Don't worry, there's not much chance of something like that doomcarrier.  It was just an example of the sort of extremity to which the AI would need to go to get through the chokepoint "normally"

Right now I'm thinking of just:
- remove the "jumping" effect of warp relays
- having a warp relay, once built, spawn additional threat (proportional to what's already waiting) to join the waiting threat.  That way it would in theory eventually have enough strength to punch through without any cheesy tricks, and/or at least make threatballs "self-dislodging"

Actually.  With some mods, the Doom Carrier idea doesn't sound too bad.
Image that the Warp Relays could store units, and would trigger free-range-threat/threatfleet to climb in when nearby.  When it starts loading, a timer starts counting down.  At the end of the count down, the Warp Relay acts like a carrier/Counter-attack wave, teleporting to some targeted system, to disgorge the stored Threatfleet units.
This allows the Threatfleet to perform anti-human deepstrikes, the human gets a (small) warning, and it uses up Threat rather than just producing MOAR UNITS.
Of course, having it slowly produce its own units then launch is another possibility, is MOAR UNITS is what is desired - but that doesn't sound Threat-related, and I think should be a different mechanic.

You could even keep the Threatfleet system targeting logic, just jumping over any 'blocking' systems

[Winge]

I suspect that the Warp Relays will be better (both for player and design intent) than anything else I've seen thus far.  I won't have a chance to test that theory for a few days.

A few other ideas coming to mind:
1a.  Make Warp Relays decay with each wave they send past defenses, self destructing after 1 + Tech Level waves sent (numbers can be tweaked, of course).  That way the player has a few options:  hold the line using mobile fleets or hunt down threat.

1b.  Make the Warp Relays only launch threat ships, not normal waves.  This could be on a greatly reduced wave timer, so that they player can't just hide their fleet back to get a 'free' threat clear.
Edit:  actually, this one is similar to what Toranth is suggesting.  I clearly need to go to bed...

2.  Threat should consider the Warp Relay an important structure to defend, both during construction and the completed relay--those ships will only flee if they are sorely outmatched by the player's fleets.  This gives the player the opportunity to get rid of threat if it has thus far eluded/fled them.  I've found clearing threat to be a PITA because it doesn't ever stay in one place.  I go to the AI's planet to take care of threat, and they immediately start moving to another AI world.  It's getting to the point where I would rather let them take an lightly planet and then drive them back (attritioning their forces via turrets, etc), rather than hunt them down.

[Cyborg]

Also don't like the warping thing.