AI War Beta 7.023-4 "So A Carrier And A MkIII Lightning Warhead Walk Into A Bar

[keith.lamothe]

Update: 7.024 hotfix for several severe balance issues with warheads, and some other stuff that got fixed in the meantime.

[Fleet Unity]

The Spirecraft can now be speed boosted and armor boosted thanks but they still have listed in the immunities that they cannot be armor boosted or attack boosted I know they can be armor boosted and speed boosted I am just not sure if they can be attack boosted or not as it does not say on the ship or the attack boost line from a flagship is not "drawn" to it.

[keith.lamothe]

The Spirecraft can now be speed boosted and armor boosted thanks but they still have listed in the immunities that they cannot be armor boosted or attack boosted I know they can be armor boosted and speed boosted I am just not sure if they can be attack boosted or not as it does not say on the ship or the attack boost line from a flagship is not "drawn" to it.

Odd.  If the immunity is still listed then it's probably still in effect.  I removed where it was set for all spirecraft but perhaps there was another place it was being set.  Thanks, will take a look when I get a chance.

[Fleet Unity]

The Spirecraft can now be speed boosted and armor boosted thanks but they still have listed in the immunities that they cannot be armor boosted or attack boosted I know they can be armor boosted and speed boosted I am just not sure if they can be attack boosted or not as it does not say on the ship or the attack boost line from a flagship is not "drawn" to it.

Odd.  If the immunity is still listed then it's probably still in effect.  I removed where it was set for all spirecraft but perhaps there was another place it was being set.  Thanks, will take a look when I get a chance.

Ok no problem but the Armor boost does seem to work for them as the Spirecraft does say Armor Boosted X3 with the Zenith Trade Ship Planetary Armor Booster if you have one on the planet.

[RockyBst]

Letting them have speed boosts makes a lot of sense. But attack boosted?

*Images of 150 million damage penetrators and even more absurdly destructive Martyrs*

[keith.lamothe]

Letting them have speed boosts makes a lot of sense. But attack boosted?

*Images of 150 million damage penetrators and even more absurdly destructive Martyrs*

The martyr's explosion mechanic (same with warheads) is inherently unaffected by attack boosting.  So it'd probably be better to put the flag back on them just for clarity.  Same deal with the Attritioner, I suppose.

And good point on the penetrator, as that's a pretty radical shift for that unit.

I'm thinking more of the Siege Tower and Translocator, and maybe just capping the boost at +100% instead of the default cap of +400%.  Though I'm sure someone would have !!fun!! with a mkV of either of those with +400%.

[RockyBst]

Heck, I could have a lot of fun with some rams and a Mk IV flagship. 400% attack boost would turn a Mk I into a MK V.

[keith.lamothe]

Heck, I could have a lot of fun with some rams and a Mk IV flagship. 400% attack boost would turn a Mk I into a MK V.

Ok, Rams too, then.

You people can't be stopped

[Arc-3N-4B]

Ouch, those new AI golems hurt.

Was playing some multiplayer, and we decided to do 40 planets, clusters, one of us in each cluster.

Ended up with 2 raid engines 2 hops from me and a Homeworld 3 hops from me, and AI 1 was a Golemite.

Went to kill the raid engines, then some data centers (4 data centers within 3 hops? Hell yes!). Annoyed Armored Golem charged my homeworld.

Took it out with mostly loop-build polarizers....and a lightning warhead (this was pre-7.024, and I wasn't gonna use a 1metal armored warhead (nor did I have the energy...)). That said, an Armored Golem's worth of scrap on the Homewolrd that early?

[Toranth]

Is there any reason that AI Nemesis champions are immune to Warheads, Armored Warheads, and Martyrs? 
I can destroy shield modules, but the hull itself takes no damage.

[keith.lamothe]

Is there any reason that AI Nemesis champions are immune to Warheads, Armored Warheads, and Martyrs? 
I can destroy shield modules, but the hull itself takes no damage.

Hmm, it's probably trying to hit the hull, but being redirected to the shield.  The shield dies, but it doesn't try to hit the hull again.  I think that's always the case with something doing a single big chunk of damage all in one frame.

A second warhead ought to fix them   Unless they're neinzul champs, those are immune to AOE (and thus to warheads, but not martyrs).

If it's a big deal I can probably get the warhead/martyr mechanic to retry the hulls, kind of like how it keeps retrying carriers.

[Toranth]

Is there any reason that AI Nemesis champions are immune to Warheads, Armored Warheads, and Martyrs? 
I can destroy shield modules, but the hull itself takes no damage.

Hmm, it's probably trying to hit the hull, but being redirected to the shield.  The shield dies, but it doesn't try to hit the hull again.  I think that's always the case with something doing a single big chunk of damage all in one frame.

A second warhead ought to fix them   Unless they're neinzul champs, those are immune to AOE (and thus to warheads, but not martyrs).

If it's a big deal I can probably get the warhead/martyr mechanic to retry the hulls, kind of like how it keeps retrying carriers.

It's all the champions, all hulls, all the time, even after the first warhead popped the shields.  A second and third warhead, nor did a fourth, fifth, sixth, or the three Mk III Martyrs.
It'd be nice if it redirected the additional damage, but not a big deal.

Here's a save if you want a sample.  Switch to the massive fleet next to the AI Homeworld, toss in the warheads and martyrs, and watch them be less than effective.

[keith.lamothe]

Oh, duh, sorry.  All champs are AOE immune, not just neinzul.

I could make the AI variants not AOE immune, though.

But that doesn't explain why the Martyrs didn't do anything, so will investigate that, thanks.

[Toranth]

Oh, duh, sorry.  All champs are AOE immune, not just neinzul.

I could make the AI variants not AOE immune, though.

But that doesn't explain why the Martyrs didn't do anything, so will investigate that, thanks.

Certainly I'd like AI Champions to be not-immune, just so Warheads can be used on them, although I have to ask:  why are Human ones AOE immune, anyway?


On a related, but slightly different note:
I'm going to suggest that the alt-progress response be adjusted a little.
I tried it out, with 8 Champions, and since I wanted everything (only available on 9+) I went ahead with Alt-Progress 10.  And since Alt-Progress was 10, I set Alt-Response to 10.
For the first 30 minutes of the game, I ran around, did a little exploring, and found an ARS a few hops out.  My 8 Frigates were the only Champions in the game.
At 41:00, 34 AI Nemesis frigates invaded and destroyed my Homeworld. 

I was rather surprised by this, so I reloaded, and sent my Champions and Fleet out to do a little cleanup.  It didn't work.  The AI was actually producing Nemesis faster than I could kill them, on the Mk I world next to my homeworld.  EACH AI player was spawning a Nemesis every 35 seconds.

So I played around a bit, experimenting with different settings.  AI Difficulty 10 *doubled* the Alt-Response, leading to a new Frigate every 18 seconds or so from each AI player.  The first wave, 10 minutes after they started spawning, was about 60 Nemesis.  Just for comparison, that's almost 4 times the number of Nemesis that a Diff 10 Heroic player sends.

I tried setting up a diff 10 game with NO human champions, but Alt-Response 10.  I cheated out the wazoo, and built everything on my Homeworld, then waited.  All turrets, all forcefields, all Fortresses, all Mines, Mk IV fleetships, everything.  At hour 5, 250 Nemesis and 4000 fleetships attacked (120,000+ strength).  The fleetships died en masse to mines and warheads, but the Nemesis just plowed their way across the system, ignoring everything, and killed me.  About 100 Nemesis were still left when the Home Command Station went down.

A quick check says a Diff 10-8 Champion-Response 10 game would result in that same 250 Nemesis mob attacking at 1:15 gametime.

I never got to see what a "Nemesis Champion Exo" looked like, because it wouldn't have launched until about 5:30 or so, and I couldn't ever survive that long.


Basically, I'm suggesting that since you cannot access all the Nebula Goodies until Alt-Progress 9+, and (to paraphrase) "set the Alt-Response to at least this intensity" means 9+ response... well, it's a little extreme at the level where you actually try for the equivalent of the traditional experience.

I'd suggest moving the goodies available down quite a bit, so you don't need to go quite so high to get everything.  I'd also suggest severely toning down the Alt-Response.  Right now, the even the intensity 4 response is much higher then the traditional nemesis response (1 nemesis per 5 minutes, with a cap).

OR, remove all the goodies completely from Alt-Progress, so that Alt impacts nothing but the XP gain rate.  Balance that so that Alt-Response intensity 6 or so is equal to the traditional response, and 10 is no more than a diff 10 Heroic AI.

[onyhow]

BTW, the description for Neinzul Enclave Ship still have old spawn time...