AI War Beta 7.021-7.022 "Champion Alter-Ego" Released!

[Kahuna]

The numbers you're seeing indicate a combat-style 2x the base (the code sets the numbers for Epic style, High caps, and the rest multiplies/divides from there).

Well herp a derp there it is. Why did I not understand it the first time.
set /A me=Tired?

[keith.lamothe]

The numbers you're seeing indicate a combat-style 2x the base (the code sets the numbers for Epic style, High caps, and the rest multiplies/divides from there).

Well herp a derp there it is. Why did I not understand it the first time.
set /A me=Tired?

After having multiple rocks-the-size-of-Finland smash through one's face at relativistic velocity, one ceases to notice nuances like math

[Kahuna]

set /A me=smashed-in-the-face-with-rocks-size-of-Finland-at-relativistic-velocity

[Aklyon]

So if theres multiple ARS on a planet, do you get a messagebox-crushing swarm of unlocks for champs with the new alt method, or just one round?
Also, do champ unlocks change if you hack the ARS?

[keith.lamothe]

So if theres multiple ARS on a planet, do you get a messagebox-crushing swarm of unlocks for champs with the new alt method, or just one round?

The message box will be smashed to pieces.

Also, do champ unlocks change if you hack the ARS?

Nope.

[RockyBst]

Well that's quite a monster of a release. Do you actually, y'know, sleep at any point?

Seeing as I've still got 24 golems en-route to my homeworld the combination of increased durability/damage, nerfed OMD and much decreased salvage value may well be a bit of a killer. Turns out putting astro trains on 10/10 with one of the AIs being a train master really wasn't a good idea. I still think that thematically the cursed golem needs to get its auto-attrition back though.

New champion setup is fantastic, as is the nerf to AI implosions. Those things have been a pain in the botnet's neck for far too long.

I can definitely see myself using the Mk II/III spirecraft siege towers now - 5 million damage / 60 million health isn't to be sniffed at when pounding forcefields. Not sure the utility really scales up to the higher quality asteroids though. As for the translocator, I'm not too sure. Is the knockback 8,000 range as well? It might be a effective way of keeping mediumish waves of swarmers back, but at only 20 shots per 2 seconds it won't kill a wave on its own even with a 5x bonus. That 20 shot limit persists across all marks too, just with more damage, where I personally think it might be better to scale up in number of shots.

I'd be interested to see how it stacks up against a tackle drone launcher (http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Tackle_Drone_Launcher) actually - that wiki page is missing vital information on how often drones are actually spawned, sadly.

[Aklyon]

The wiki is often a big patchwork, except for the patch notes page (ironic?). The metal and crystal page has only [placeholder], and theres even an FS-related page that ends in 'Will continue writing this document later... '

[Faulty Logic]

Spirecraft changes look awesome. I'll probably use those spirecraft now. Golem changes look good too, with one persisting problem.

Couple questions: does the AI response to your champion go down when you have alternate progress?

I definitely think it should, because you miss out on 3 modular forts (worth roughly 9000 k), hordes of minions (I'm not sure what a set of 7 minion starships is worth, probably 1-1.5k k), and 500 actual k per scenario. Plus the one-time dyson gatlings/allied enclaves.

Can I have one alternate and one traditional champ?

Golem tests:

Cursed has enough health to run away if ships catch up to her.

Armored's survivability against multiple small engagements (like if you send him to clear a planet) has increased substantially, but large engagements are problamatic.

Widow's survivability has also gone up a bunch, but only when you keep her moving.

Artillery is basically unchanged, but is almost never closely engaged anyway.

Regen is no longer a major embarrassment to the the golem family. They still prefer not to talk about him, though.

Botnet is better able to abscond when things get out of hand, though he is still suffering from the waves-have-lots-of-starships-now change.

Hive no longer evaporates instantly. It takes a little bit, and the swarm lasts longer, and inflicts more damage. However, it's still kind of pathetic. A heavily alerted mkII system still usually has survivors. Same with dormant mkIII. Any mkIV or higher system, any system with a fortress, any fleet presence over a couple hundred, or any gravity withstands the swarm without much issue.

A double swarm bumps the effectiveness up a little less than a mk level. Even a double swarm evaporates for no noticeable impact on an exo.

Hive golems are my favorite; I remember their description inspiring me to buy the expansions.

Please help them:

wasp dps to 500,000 (note that they almost never get their full dps).
Possibly even more wasp health (3 million). Or just allow swarms of 1000 per golem 

[Aklyon]

I haven't tried it yet, but aren't mod forts part of the unlock rounds?

[relmz32]

After looking at the release notes from last night, this is definitely not the title i was expecting, however, Keith, you are a scholar and a gentleman, and thank you for getting this patch out in the middle of all of the Last Fed work.

[Faulty Logic]

I haven't tried it yet, but aren't mod forts part of the unlock rounds?

Not according to the patch notes:

Each round will generally unlock a new champ hull type OR a new champ hull size, and also unlock a new module type. If no hull type or size is unlocked, it unlocks a second module type.

[keith.lamothe]

Well that's quite a monster of a release. Do you actually, y'know, sleep at any point?

No.

Seeing as I've still got 24 golems en-route to my homeworld the combination of increased durability/damage, nerfed OMD and much decreased salvage value may well be a bit of a killer.

That way you can blame the loss on the patch and save face

Turns out putting astro trains on 10/10 with one of the AIs being a train master really wasn't a good idea.

No.

I still think that thematically the cursed golem needs to get its auto-attrition back though.

Because of the name?  I can put it back but I'm kind of surprised than anyone would ask for something that back which seems to literally only serve the purpose of making it more fiddly to use something   I'd rather change the name if that's the issue.  The "Reach Out And Hurt Someone" golem, perhaps.

I can definitely see myself using the Mk II/III spirecraft siege towers now - 5 million damage / 60 million health isn't to be sniffed at when pounding forcefields. Not sure the utility really scales up to the higher quality asteroids though.

In general the higher-mark spirecraft don't scale well as they have costs and caps which vary dramatically from other stuff in the game.  Specifically:

- The higher mark ones have MUCH higher effective costs, as the higher tier asteroids are more-than-linearly more-rare.  Titanite is freaking rare, and the next one down is nearly as much.

- The caps aren't constant across marks but rather are usually (possibly always) 8/6/4/2/1 times some multiple.  This isn't necessarily a problem as I can just balance them as individual units and all the caps do is give you a reason to use the lower ones even for types where you want the higher marks (because while a MkIII siege tower might be your preference, if you want more than 4 you need to dip into the lower marks).


Anyway, the caps are probably fine as is (though maybe it needs to be more like 16/8/4/2/1 so it's a more obvious half-each-mark).  And the higher-mark ones requiring such rarer elements is actually pretty cool.  But I think it'd be better to balance their health/dps quadratically (if that's the word; mk N gets mk N-1 stats *2) rather than linearly.  So a MkV would have 16 times the health and DPS of the MkI.

That only addresses the combat-oriented ones.  Which aren't many.  But the non-combat ones can be given special abilities like the MkV Jumpship's immunity to blackholes, etc.

As for the translocator, I'm not too sure. Is the knockback 8,000 range as well? It might be a effective way of keeping mediumish waves of swarmers back, but at only 20 shots per 2 seconds it won't kill a wave on its own even with a 5x bonus. That 20 shot limit persists across all marks too, just with more damage, where I personally think it might be better to scale up in number of shots.

We could try that.  I went with the railcluster's stats, really, and figured it was a tough-as-nails enough combatant that having a ship that was individually as tough as a cap of railclusters (plus other abilities) would be worth using

So it's kind of halfway between a "keepaway" unit and a "just kill them" unit.  Which perhaps is not a middle ground that works, but we'll see.

[keith.lamothe]

Couple questions: does the AI response to your champion go down when you have alternate progress?

Not in 7.021.  I was waiting to see how it worked out in practice.  I'm quite happy to adjust the response, but what specifically seems off about it?  Iirc the response was largely based on getting larger champ sizes while still at low AIP.  In the nebula model you can get BB hulls at AIP 10.  In the alternate model I don't see how you'd manage BB hulls (on maps that don't have the Advanced Factories stacked on top of each other) with less than AIP 100.  Though perhaps I failed to anticipate something

And no, the alternate progress does not grant the mod forts.  It can be made to do so, I'm just not sure it makes sense.  Basically it's up to you guys whether you'd rather have the mod forts (and their effect on the balance targets) be part of the alt progress thing.

Can I have one alternate and one traditional champ?

No, I couldn't think of a way where that would make sense.  Particularly since hull/module unlocks are shared across all champs, and it'd be a royal pain to have some champs be able to enter nebulae and others not, etc.

Armored's survivability against multiple small engagements (like if you send him to clear a planet) has increased substantially, but large engagements are problamatic.

Does anything survive large engagements?

I'm guessing it's mainly a targeting priority thing, rather than a stats thing.  The Armored is a beast numerically.

Please help them:

wasp dps to 500,000 (note that they almost never get their full dps).
Possibly even more wasp health (3 million). Or just allow swarms of 1000 per golem 

I think 1000-wasp swarms could lead to CPU issues, knowing how someone will dig up about 5 Hives somehow, etc.

But we can try those numbers and see what happens.

I guess I just remember too well the days where a single Hive could clear an AI HW singlehandedly... yea, yea, things have changed

[keith.lamothe]

After looking at the release notes from last night, this is definitely not the title i was expecting, however, Keith, you are a scholar and a gentleman, and thank you for getting this patch out in the middle of all of the Last Fed work.

You're welcome, and thanks for the kind words

[Kahuna]

Give Cursed Golem it's attrition and change it's name to Emo Golem.