Author Topic: AI War Beta 7.019-7.020 "Oops MkII" Released!  (Read 13153 times)

Offline Chthon

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Re: AI War Beta 7.019-7.020 "Oops MkII" Released!
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2014, 10:06:52 pm »
2) Make the player's proper response to the mechanic require a highly disproportionate (to the fun value) amount of player attention and micro.  Who here liked it when the AI left blobs of cloaked threat behind your front lines?  Now imagine cloaked AI scouts on half or more of your worlds.  Periodically replenished.
I would like to see them try.  My border worlds always have military commands and/or anti-spies.  Mk III if I can manage it.  If I use Mk II or I then I make sure it can tachyon at least the important wormholes and have other tachyon and guns aimed at unimportant wormholes.
Of course, other than those Military command stations, the human player is extremely limited in the number of Tachyon supplying options.  That's been one of the issues with letting the AI truly take advantage of Cloaking.

Personally, I'd love to see cloaking upgraded - for both sides.  For humans, make it so that cloaking only gives a unit count, not details.  And for the AI, make it so that cloaked units Strength is slowly forgotten.  Cloaked attackers wouldn't put worlds on alert or trigger Raid Engines, etc.
If Tachyon is that problematic, there are Tachyon sentries you can unlock.  You get quite a few of those.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI War Beta 7.019-7.020 "Oops MkII" Released!
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2014, 05:22:17 am »
For humans, make it so that cloaking only gives a unit count, not details.

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=2591 and duplicates.

Offline SapphireSage

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Re: AI War Beta 7.019-7.020 "Oops MkII" Released!
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2014, 12:00:02 pm »
I'm not sure if its intentional or not, but are you supposed to be able to place enemy ships in transports via tractor beams such as riots or etherjets? Note that the enemy ships do not count toward the max transportable units in the transport.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 7.019-7.020 "Oops MkII" Released!
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2014, 12:05:36 pm »
It... keeps the tractored units with the thing going into the transport?  Goodness.  Yea, it would probably be better for it to release the tractored units first.

What happens if you:
1) Tractor enemy units.
2) Put the tractor-ship in a transport.
3) Unload the tractor-ship back out of the transport
- At this point, did the tractored units come back out with it?  If not just stop here.

4) Put the tractor-ship back in the transport
5) Save the game.
6) Quit to the main menu.
7) Load the game
8 ) Unload the tractor back out of the transport
- did the tractored units come back out with it?
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: AI War Beta 7.019-7.020 "Oops MkII" Released!
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2014, 12:31:14 pm »
Tractor Platforms + Transports.

Best way to annihilate AI units. XD

(Assuming they don't come out again).

Shame nothing threatening is tractorable.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 7.019-7.020 "Oops MkII" Released!
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2014, 12:35:36 pm »
Shame nothing threatening is tractorable.
Oh, then you won't mind if these 5,000 MkV Bombers come visit.  Not a threat at all.
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: AI War Beta 7.019-7.020 "Oops MkII" Released!
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2014, 12:59:10 pm »
Shame nothing threatening is tractorable.
Oh, then you won't mind if these 5,000 MkV Bombers come visit.  Not a threat at all.

Mines.  Cesium and water. ;)

Not to mention that bombers are pretty much the counter to anything with tractor beams.  Except etherjets, but those can only grab 1 bomber at a time and are anti-bomber units already.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 01:00:46 pm by Draco18s »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 7.019-7.020 "Oops MkII" Released!
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2014, 01:06:28 pm »
Mines.  Cesium and water. ;)
Ok, MkV Tigers, then ;)

Quote
Not to mention that bombers are pretty much the counter to anything with tractor beams.  Except etherjets, but those can only grab 1 bomber at a time and are anti-bomber units already.
I'm sure you can find a way to keep the tractor units alive for the process.
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Offline SapphireSage

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Re: AI War Beta 7.019-7.020 "Oops MkII" Released!
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2014, 02:30:08 pm »
Okay, I just completed the testing for the tractor transports, saves and results to follow.

Results

I placed my transport containing riots inside the threat ball on the Northern bordering world of Jatin in order to kidnap them for malicious experiments.

Once I deployed my Riots they immediately captured the enemy ships and returned to the transport. The ships that were captured would stay on the spot of tractoring. They would be able to fire on anything that got in range of them, but it seemed they were unable to move, as though in a constant state of being tractored by the riot ships, since they did not mobilize when I unloaded my merc forces on the same planet.

Upon unloading the riot ships I discovered that the enemy ships actually teleported to the riots and got recaptured by the tractor beams.

After saving the game, I quit to desktop and reloaded with the transport on top of my defenses. When I unloaded the transport the enemy ships teleported to my riots demonstrating that this would persist across saves.

Instructions for Recreation

The Transport that contains the Riots is group "5" and the riots themselves is group "2"

For Before, the transport is cloaked, and in position inside the minor threatball in Jatin. All that needs to be done is to unload and reload the transport of its riots. Then, you will be able to transport the enemy ships around at your fancy.

For the after, the transport is loaded with riot ships that have tractored enemy ships and is sitting on top of my defenses in the northern border world of Fiudon. you can see the ~500 ship group of Jatin turn into approx. 300 units once you unload the transport.

Conclusion

Currently, this could make riots and tractor platforms combined with assault transports a tedious and cheesy way to "encourage" large threat balls to attack.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 7.019-7.020 "Oops MkII" Released!
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2014, 02:35:06 pm »
Hilarious :)  Thanks for the detailed investigation and the save for reproducing it, that will help a lot in testing a fix.  Which is that something entering a transport should immediately stop tractoring other units first.
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Offline Eternaly_Lost

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Re: AI War Beta 7.019-7.020 "Oops MkII" Released!
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2014, 06:03:03 pm »
Hilarious :)  Thanks for the detailed investigation and the save for reproducing it, that will help a lot in testing a fix.  Which is that something entering a transport should immediately stop tractoring other units first.

I don't see any reason why a Tractor can't pull a ship into a transport.

Granted, unless said transport is designed to do so, I fully expect those ships to start to shoot their way out.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 7.019-7.020 "Oops MkII" Released!
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2014, 06:06:19 pm »
Having units from different teams in the same transport actually work well would probably take me a solid day of work, and that's not counting the various interface cues people would want to make sure they didn't accidentally unload a bunch of angry captives in their backfield :)
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Offline Chthon

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Re: AI War Beta 7.019-7.020 "Oops MkII" Released!
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2014, 06:37:38 pm »
Having units from different teams in the same transport actually work well would probably take me a solid day of work, and that's not counting the various interface cues people would want to make sure they didn't accidentally unload a bunch of angry captives in their backfield :)
Oh god, now the Thief AI is going to start coming with transports... for greater efficiency...

Offline Arc-3N-4B

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Re: AI War Beta 7.019-7.020 "Oops MkII" Released!
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2014, 04:46:39 am »
Is it just me, or are there considerably more starships this time around?

I'm routinely encountering upwards of 5 or even 10 starships on almost every planet in a 7/7 game (Spire Hammer/Turtle, uh, Neinzul Youngling (?)/Vanilla), all expansions.

We're doing FS, though haven't even got the first shard, and I think we're sitting on 150 AIP or so right now, but it's been happening over several games, and at >100 AIP.

I thought it was just the AI Type for the first game we played (side note: Fallen Spire shard chase + Mad Bomber/Warp Jumper huuuuurt) but it's consistent with other AI types.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 04:48:56 am by The Silent Watcher »
Destroying humanity, one command station at a time.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI War Beta 7.019-7.020 "Oops MkII" Released!
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2014, 05:01:25 am »
There have been some changes with how the AI buys reinforcements, using a more "unified" logic. Some composition changes might be observable. The problem used to be much worse right after this change went in, but there is still some adjustment.


It could very well be what some people on the forums have suggested, that the costs of starships to the AI are too low given how strong they really are, thus they are able to get a disproportionately high number of them under this new logic.


Of course, who is to say that the old starship/fleet ship ratio by the AI was ideal?