AI War Beta 7.011-7.012 "Salvaged Resources" Released!

[Draco18s]

...can the AI get golems with salvage?

Nah, it's just normal wave rules.

But if you start losing golems (plural) in AI territory expect some very. large. waves.

Add it as a plot/addon/feature thing.  "Golems in waves, if they get big enough."  Possibly including some value of the golems:yes slider.

As an aside, I never really liked any of the (old) golem settings.  I liked having them, but the downsides never really fit my playstyle.  I wanted to set it to "hard" except that the exowaves ended up being a "never get out of the midgame" effect.  Any time I had where I was ready to hit a hard target with a fully equipped fleet was within minutes of an exo showing up.  And that was extra-true for Hard Spirecraft.  Sooo... I tended to have golems on easy. :\

I don't object to the concept of exo waves and their special toys, they just happened to slow the game down to an utter stalemate.

Random question...
...nukes would effect salvage...wouldn't they...?
What would a Mk3 nuke do to your wave sizes due to salvage?

I'm almost afraid of finding out.

[keith.lamothe]

Random question...
...nukes would effect salvage...wouldn't they...?
What would a Mk3 nuke do to your wave sizes due to salvage?

If all your ships were on player planets, and all AI ships were not on player planets, and the mkIII was on a player planet when it went off (can't think of any gameplay reason it wouldn't be) then no salvage would be generated at all.  Only AI-dying-on-player-planets and player-dying-off-player-planets generates salvage.

I actually originally implemented it so that anything dying on a player planet left salvage for the player, and anything dying elsewhere gave the AI salvage.

Let's just say that would make clearing heavy AI planets painful.

[ZaneWolfe]

Also, possibly separate Turret Controller from Fabricators? Right now getting all 8 controllers hacked makes it pretty much impossible to hack a fabricator. Even in high AIP games. Combined with the previously mentioned bug, things get ridiculous fast.

Turrets are already being discussed as OP.  This would make them even more so, and deserving of a nerf.  Please watch what you wish for.

I've already commented on my thoughts on Core Turret 'OPness'.

I don't see anything really unbalanced with the Core Turrets right now. Sure you can go wild with them, once you have 10-12 planets worth of energy. But getting to that point costs you 180 - 220 AIP. Not exactly free. Then there is the fact you have to hold the controller, keeping it safe, or hack it. Hacking them costs from your fab hack pool. This gets really expensive, leaving you with less hacks for actual mobile ships, all of which are technically exclusive to fabricators. (Either because its Mark V or experimental) There is also a bug that causes advanced constructor hacks to also cost a fab hack as well, making it even more prohibitive to hack all 8 of the controllers. On top of that, you have to find all 8 of the things. Sure you can get lucky and get the best of them near you, but I've see games where only a few controllers were within 4 hops of me, and the rest were deep in AI space, including one right next to a core world.

Now, playing a high AIP game, or Fallen Spire, does negate some of those draw backs. You're going to have a ton of planets and exess energy, so you might as well build them. You're going to have a lot of hacking points, due to the shear amount of AIP you have, so you might as well hack the controllers. But that is the point. You're going the high AIP route, especially with FS, so you get to play around more with resources. The downside is you have a metric ton of AIP and all that comes with it. And if you're going the FS route, you also have Exos coming periodically.

All in all, Core Turrets are powerful and incredibly useful. In a low AIP game, they can stop entire waves by themselves. But you have much more limited energy to place them around. In a high AIP game, or FS, you have much more freedom to place them, but after a certain point they are not going to just solo waves. And if you have ANY source of Exos, the core turrets WILL NOT stop those entirely. Might make a really nice dent, but not coming close to actually fully stopping an Exo. And the point of the Core Turrets, as with Mini Forts, was to allow better defending on the more open maps. This is something Core Turrets do incredibly well. All in all, I see no reason to make these changes. Core Turrets seem just fine to me. You either have only enough energy to place them where they are needed most, or you have so much AIP (and possible Exos) that Core Turrets alone wont keep you safe.

I would humbly suggest that hacking all 8 turret control fabs probably shouldn't even be possible in a game with typical AIP, and it should certainly eat all the HaP you've got. That's an enormously powerful advantage.

Yes, it is a powerful advantage. And in low/average AIP game you will NOT actually hack them all. But in a high AIP/FS game, you WILL have the ability to hack the majority of them, and it WILL be a powerful tool in your arsenal. You're also going to need everything you can get to win too. Personally I think the cost should be the same as a Fab hack, just drawing from a differing pool than Fabricators so you can actually hack some Fabricators as well. Even without changing the base cost from 20, the total Hacking Progress for all 8 would be a staggering 985.15625. (Just did the flat math, no rounding) Nearly 50 planets worth of AIP. So even then, it wont be much of a buff. It just means you will be able to get some Fabricators as well as Turret Controllers. Because right now it's either one or the other. Nothing against making tough choices, but I feel having the options opened up more would be more enjoyable.

However, if I had to choose between giving Turret Controllers their own hacking pool, but giving them a nerf to compensate, or leaving them alone entirely, (neither separated in hacking nor changed in stats) then I would rather just leave them alone entirely. I feel they are in a good place right now stat wise. (Across the board) I just find myself wishing I could also hack a few Fabricators while still getting the majority of the Turret Controllers. Yeah, I'm greedy.

[onyhow]

You still didn't address the fact that it does render normal turret mostly useless...

[chemical_art]

I remember posting one time that mk V have their numbers cut by a third, but unlocking its turret would increase the cap by 100% so that if you research mk iii you get the full cap of today. can't remember the reason why it was not a good idea.

[LordSloth]

And all this mention of golems inspired me to ask a few questions (perhaps to answer).

Player controlled Golems, Human Colony Rebellion built ships, and Fallen Spire-type frigates don't count towards salvage, being Minor Faction units?
AI controlled units don't count towards AI salvage, such as Fortresses, correct

What happens if your AI types are Parasite and Thief?

Finally, an edge case: how do scapegoats and the regeneration golem affect the salvage counter?

I'd like to run with Stealth Battleships and see how that  turns out, but scapegoats might be a more useful thing to check out.

[keith.lamothe]

Player controlled Golems, Human Colony Rebellion built ships, and Fallen Spire-type frigates don't count towards salvage, being Minor Faction units?

Only units controlled by a minor faction are exempt.  So the resistance fighter guys or marauder guys that do a drive-by from deep space don't leave salvage.  But if you repair a golem and lose it outside player territory, or build your own rebel-fighter units from a rebel colony and then lose them outside player territory, or build Fallen Spire capital ships and lose them outside player territory...

Then the AI will get the salvage, and you'll be hearing from it soon.

AI controlled units don't count towards AI salvage, such as Fortresses, correct

If you capture a planet (as in actually put down a command station of your own), and then kill the AI-controlled fort (or whatever) on it, then you get the salvage.  Which wouldn't actually be a bad play, now that I think about it.  But if the AI loses a unit it never gets the salvage no matter where it is.  Same with you: if the player loses a unit the player never gets the salvage.  I had originally implemented and tested it where the AI would get salvage for its own stuff that died outside player territory, and the player would get salvage for the player's own stuff that died in player territory... it's interesting, but way more game-dominating than I wanted.  Possibly a toggle for that later would be a good idea, once the core mechanic is stable.

What happens if your AI types are Parasite and Thief?

I'm not exactly sure.  Stuff that's reclaimed may or may not create salvage.  It probably does, as internally the game "destroys" the unit and then "creates" a new one that looks suspiciously similar.

If the AI physically tractors your units out of player territory and then kills them, it gets the salvage in full carjacking glory.

Finally, an edge case: how do scapegoats and the regeneration golem affect the salvage counter?

Regenerated units are never actually destroyed, so they probably won't create salvage.  The scapegoats themselves, when they die via regenerating others, will create salvage.  But they're not very high-ticket.

[Chthon]

What happens if your AI types are Parasite and Thief?

I'm not exactly sure.  Stuff that's reclaimed may or may not create salvage.  It probably does, as internally the game "destroys" the unit and then "creates" a new one that looks suspiciously similar.

If the AI physically tractors your units out of player territory and then kills them, it gets the salvage in full carjacking glory.

Hrm...  This does sway the play balance a little bit.  Perhaps too much in the favor of reclamation units.  I already love reclaimer units, and am feeling this may overbalance early game Merc Parasites or even normal ones.  I have 2 ideas on how to fix this, but I'll have to play with the salvage a little more to decide.  I'll list them here:

First way is simplest, prevent reclamation from producing salvage.  When a reclaimed unit is created for the player on a player planet, or for the AI on AI planet, it deducts it's full cost from the salvage total effectively zeroing out the salvage you gained from it.  After all, if you still have the ship, what is there to actually salvage.  This also goes for ships that have taken significant reprocessor damage, i.e. over 50%.  For reprocessor damage at about 50% in theory it should average out.  In practice it probably will still be a buff for them.

Second way is a little different.  Increase the metal cost of units that reclaim to off set the free metal they can cause.  The increase needs to be enough to make it not worth reclaiming for scrap if your reclaimers are at significant risk.  The AI's fleet points need to be adjusted as well, and reprocessors are included in the change.

[keith.lamothe]

Certainly if the reclaimed units giving salvage is a big deal I'll prevent them from doing so; it's fairly simple, I just hadn't taken the time to make sure (as that would necessarily involve orbital nuclear bombardment).

[Chthon]

Certainly if the reclaimed units giving salvage is a big deal I'll prevent them from doing so; it's fairly simple, I just hadn't taken the time to make sure (as that would necessarily involve orbital nuclear bombardment).

"As your poets say curiously, 'Nuke it from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure.'"

[ZaneWolfe]

You still didn't address the fact that it does render normal turret mostly useless...

I remember posting one time that mk V have their numbers cut by a third, but unlocking its turret would increase the cap by 100% so that if you research mk iii you get the full cap of today. can't remember the reason why it was not a good idea.

An interesting idea. Perhaps rather than having to go with MK III turrets to get a full cap of Core Turrets, make it so that MK II gets a full cap, and MK III gets a small, 25% or so, boost to the cap.

As for Core Turrets making normal turrets useless, I again disagree.  Due to the limited cap, core turrets are only 2.5 times stronger than MK I turrets. A cap of only MK I and MK II alone is already stronger than a full cap of core. A full cap of MK I - MK III turrets is 2.4 times stronger than a cap of core turrets. On a single planet, like say your chokepoint, normal turrets can cover more area and deal more damage. Even with my idea that unlocking MK III normal turrets gives a small boost to the core cap, it would only make core turrets as strong as a full cap of both MK I and MK II.

[Kahuna]

And in low/average AIP game you will NOT actually hack them all.

Yes I will. And I do. EDIT: not all of them though.
--> solution: increase the hacking response to make Core Turrets balanced? EDIT2: If they are unbalanced

[Kahuna]

Hrm...  This does sway the play balance a little bit.  Perhaps too much in the favor of reclamation units.  I already love reclaimer units, and am feeling this may overbalance early game Merc Parasites or even normal ones.

How on earth does this change buff reclaimers? You're going to get the same amount of salvage with and without reclaimers.

Hm I didn't know there is such thing as early game Merc Parasites. I'd rahter use my resources for Mark I Leech Starships.

[Draco18s]

How on earth does this change buff reclaimers? You're going to get the same amount of salvage with and without reclaimers.

I think the point is that the ship is both killed (generating salvage) and captured.

I'm not sure it's really a "buff" more of a status-quo kind of thing.

It is a buff to tractor beam units, as you can drag units back to player-controlled space for the salvage.  Which is awesome.  I probably still would not use them though, as they're really difficult to manage properly.

[Chthon]

Hrm...  This does sway the play balance a little bit.  Perhaps too much in the favor of reclamation units.  I already love reclaimer units, and am feeling this may overbalance early game Merc Parasites or even normal ones.

How on earth does this change buff reclaimers? You're going to get the same amount of salvage with and without reclaimers.

Hm I didn't know there is such thing as early game Merc Parasites. I'd rahter use my resources for Mark I Leech Starships.

I usually set my mercenary base to build parasites with excess metal right from the start.  Usually anything over 1 million extra.  Even one or two early parasites can help me reclaim additional ships that I don't have to pay for.  However I too usually get all my fleet and starships up prior to getting them.

What I meant by early is before you have more than a few worlds.  Those one or two parasites are effectively mk IV which means they reclaim Mk I and II ships at a greatly enhanced speed.  I often have full caps of Mk II fleet ships in no time without the need to unlock them for the relatively low cost of a few parasites.

As for the salvage, you are salvaging something which in effect should not exist.  You are getting metal salvage for a ship which is now actively in your fleet.  I see your point that the salvage would be there without them, but salvage should logically be a nerf to reclaimers and reprocessors, so the additional salvage when you reclaim and reprocess units is a buff for them.

In the end salvage does kind of put reclamation and reprocessing in a weird place, as up until now they were our salvagers.