AI War Beta 7.011-7.012 "Salvaged Resources" Released!

[keith.lamothe]

Looks interesting. I won't be able to test this for a little while so can someone clarify: the reprisal waves follow the normal wave rules? That is, they come through AI warp gates?

Yep

They literally just bump up the schedule for the next wave, and add the salvaged strength on top of it.

[Orelius]

Sweet.  This looks very promising.

[Vinraith]

Looks interesting. I won't be able to test this for a little while so can someone clarify: the reprisal waves follow the normal wave rules? That is, they come through AI warp gates?

Yep

They literally just bump up the schedule for the next wave, and add the salvaged strength on top of it.

The return of the scrap wave.

[keith.lamothe]

The return of the scrap wave.

In a sense, yes, except this mechanic will actually happen in normal games

[Vinraith]

The return of the scrap wave.

In a sense, yes, except this mechanic will actually happen in normal games

Yup. Different mechanic, but the name fits!

[Aklyon]

Do reprisals show up in adv. logging somewhere?

[keith.lamothe]

Do reprisals show up in adv. logging somewhere?

In-game they show up with "(Reprisal)" in the wave warning line.

In the "LogicLog_AIMechanic_Waves_MainThread.txt" file (with advanced logging on) they show mostly as just normal waves, but you can identify the reprisal ones by finding a line like:

Triggering Normal Wave for player 9; wave size factor: 1.58; extra strength (salvage): 165.3; Game Time: 0:13:02

The bolded part is always present, but will be zero unless it's a reprisal.


And you can see where it actually applies that strength by looking for something like

after applying 165.3 extra strength (from salvage), numberUnits : 2.72

I'm actually digging through the wave code right now (some long-overdue reorganization) and noticed from the logs that it was actually applying the salvage strength to starships, rather than fleet ships (due to a change I made late in the process). Oops   I mean, it's valid once the numbers get big but generally it's not going to lead to even one starship early on.  Already have a fix in for 7.013 that will make sure it dumps that on fleet ships.

[amethyst]

Aww, I'll miss the manual cursor spinning for extra sim speed! It was like adding an extra hamster to make things go faster!

The resource changes look very interesting, including salvage. Once the Showdown Device bug is fixed, I'll finally try to finish up the long-dormant game I have going and jump back into a fresh game, at least if I can tear myself away from Path of Exile.

Good to have you back poking at AI War!

[Wingflier]

Congratulations, I'm glad you guys are still working on this.

[Chthon]

Just putting this up here first since I don't know if it is a bug for sure or not.  I attacked a planet, and worked at destroying a command station.  Apparently before I destroyed the command I lost enough ships to cause a reprisal, however the mention came seconds after I destroyed the command.  So far so good, it showed as coming from

Note:  Playing on concentric with me in the dead center with 1 warp gate out.  This was for my first planet conquered.

When I took the system I prepared for the reprisal.  The timer counted down, then the wave got added to the threat.  At this point I had vision out to my neighbors, who had warp gates, but I saw no threat in either of these.  IIRC, waves are supposed to come from the closes warp gate to your space if none bordering your space exist correct?  It was about 10 minutes before the wave sidled up to the borders of my space and camped out as threat, never actually attacking me.

I didn't think to make a save for this or take a screenshot.  Was too excited to play with the new patches.  Do Reprisals follow wave rules 100% the same or are there a few exceptions they can follow?  Sorry about not having evidence, but maybe you could reproduce using cheats?

Edit:  I also have a minor concern, though I don't have evidence it will become a concern.

Reprisal waves.  It feels almost as if you are punishing a player for poor performance in addition to them losing the ships they lost.  This is almost beneficial at lower difficulties, as you get some of your resources thrown back at you in small, easy to kill chunks, but I can't help but feel it'll be devastating at higher ones when the reprisals are quite a bit larger.  However I don't nor have I ever played on higher than 8, and I usually play on 7-7.6. 

Edit 2:  Another thing I noticed, Mk 3 logistics stations say they get 30%, but when you actually have salvage down below the bottom threshold, it says 29/s gained, 71/s lost.  This is either a display bug or math bug.  Not sure which.

[keith.lamothe]

IIRC, waves are supposed to come from the closes warp gate to your space if none bordering your space exist correct?

I don't know for sure, but I doubt it's restricted to the very closest gates (regardless of whether it's a reprisal).  It may even have a broader choice than that.  In general killing all adjacent gates gives it a lot of freedom (and is thus generally inadvisable)

Edit:  I also have a minor concern, though I don't have evidence it will become a concern.

Reprisal waves.  It feels almost as if you are punishing a player for poor performance in addition to them losing the ships they lost.  This is almost beneficial at lower difficulties, as you get some of your resources thrown back at you in small, easy to kill chunks, but I can't help but feel it'll be devastating at higher ones when the reprisals are quite a bit larger.  However I don't nor have I ever played on higher than 8, and I usually play on 7-7.6.

Yes, it will (quite intentionally) make the higher difficulties harder in terms of weight-of-metal-thrown-at-player (especially if the player fleet-wipes), in exchange for an economic dynamic (from all AI attacks stopped on player territory, not just reprisals) that allows for less time-not-playing-the-game, etc.

Balance feedback is of course welcome, as the numbers could easily be way too high or way too low, but in general "it's harder now" is the idea, so long as it goes with "and more fun"

[Chthon]

You may have missed my 3rd note about salvage at the Logistics Mk 3.  Home seemed to work perfectly.  Logistics 3 seems to only get 29%

IIRC, waves are supposed to come from the closes warp gate to your space if none bordering your space exist correct?

I don't know for sure, but I doubt it's restricted to the very closest gates (regardless of whether it's a reprisal).  It may even have a broader choice than that.  In general killing all adjacent gates gives it a lot of freedom (and is thus generally inadvisable)

Then it's bad timing on my part then, though it was a narrow window for it to happen.

[keith.lamothe]

Edit 2:  Another thing I noticed, Mk 3 logistics stations say they get 30%, but when you actually have salvage down below the bottom threshold, it says 29/s gained, 71/s lost.  This is either a display bug or math bug.  Not sure which.

That's within the margin of error of the game's non-integer math, really, but thanks for letting me know   The lack-of-precision may be striking the actual sim math, or the display, or both.

Its stats are 30% and that's what it aims for.  Overall it will be quite close.

[ZaneWolfe]

Can we please fix the bug that causes Advanced Construction hacking to cost both a hack from that pool AND a hack from the Fabricator pool? Because hacking both a Advance Factory and an Advanced Starship Constructor should only cost 250 Hacking Progress, not a MINIMUM of 300. And that is if I haven't hacked a single Fabricator or Turret Controller.

Also, possibly separate Turret Controller from Fabricators? Right now getting all 8 controllers hacked makes it pretty much impossible to hack a fabricator. Even in high AIP games. Combined with the previously mentioned bug, things get ridiculous fast.

[Chthon]

Also, possibly separate Turret Controller from Fabricators? Right now getting all 8 controllers hacked makes it pretty much impossible to hack a fabricator. Even in high AIP games. Combined with the previously mentioned bug, things get ridiculous fast.

Turrets are already being discussed as OP.  This would make them even more so, and deserving of a nerf.  Please watch what you wish for.