Author Topic: AI War Beta 7.011-7.012 "Salvaged Resources" Released!  (Read 15626 times)

Offline RockyBst

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Re: AI War Beta 7.011-7.012 "Salvaged Resources" Released!
« Reply #75 on: March 21, 2014, 03:41:14 pm »
Awesome update, I've returned to my 30+ hour 9/9 feeding parasite / technologist raider grudge match off the back of this. I gave up on that primarily because of the insane refleeting times, and inability to crank out ships as quickly as the strategic reserves replenished. Salvage, AND I can now go flashbang the AI homeworlds without the universe dividing by zero and all the wormholes vanishing. What more could a guy ask for.

w.r.t the cleanup drones, I still like them for flavour if nothing else. If you wanted a proper role for them I'd say either have them work like engineers and speed up salvage collection, or possibly make it so that only half of the salvage value of large targets (starships, golems) is sent straight to salvage and the rest is put into a minable 'hulk'.

I'm fairly sure the AI mines still repair themselves sometimes as well, so I normally send a few cleanups through particularly bad wormholes.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 7.011-7.012 "Salvaged Resources" Released!
« Reply #76 on: March 21, 2014, 03:43:11 pm »
Awesome update, I've returned to my 30+ hour 9/9 feeding parasite / technologist raider grudge match off the back of this. I gave up on that primarily because of the insane refleeting times, and inability to crank out ships as quickly as the strategic reserves replenished. Salvage, AND I can now go flashbang the AI homeworlds without the universe dividing by zero and all the wormholes vanishing. What more could a guy ask for.
Glad to hear we got you back in business :)
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Offline RockyBst

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Re: AI War Beta 7.011-7.012 "Salvaged Resources" Released!
« Reply #77 on: March 21, 2014, 05:25:25 pm »
Hmm, something I've just noticed. The reprisal timer doesn't persist across saves / loads. So if the AI throws a couple of reprisal waves at you, you save a minute later and then later load that save you'll get another set of reprisal waves. Which can be painful when the primary reason you reload the save is because you're in the middle of a 7000+ ship CPA, and the waves add another 3k or so.

In other words, as soon as you load the game you get 2 reprisal waves scheduled whenever you have an outstanding AI salvage balance.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 05:27:46 pm by RockyBst »

Offline Chthon

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Re: AI War Beta 7.011-7.012 "Salvaged Resources" Released!
« Reply #78 on: March 21, 2014, 05:43:53 pm »
Hmm, something I've just noticed. The reprisal timer doesn't persist across saves / loads. So if the AI throws a couple of reprisal waves at you, you save a minute later and then later load that save you'll get another set of reprisal waves. Which can be painful when the primary reason you reload the save is because you're in the middle of a 7000+ ship CPA, and the waves add another 3k or so.

In other words, as soon as you load the game you get 2 reprisal waves scheduled whenever you have an outstanding AI salvage balance.
Feature to discourage save scumming.  :P

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 7.011-7.012 "Salvaged Resources" Released!
« Reply #79 on: March 21, 2014, 06:08:28 pm »
Hmm, something I've just noticed. The reprisal timer doesn't persist across saves / loads. So if the AI throws a couple of reprisal waves at you, you save a minute later and then later load that save you'll get another set of reprisal waves. Which can be painful when the primary reason you reload the save is because you're in the middle of a 7000+ ship CPA, and the waves add another 3k or so.

In other words, as soon as you load the game you get 2 reprisal waves scheduled whenever you have an outstanding AI salvage balance.
It's not actually quite so bad as it looks; I just checked and you're right that it's not serializing the "don't launch reprisal waves for a particular AI player closer than 10 minutes apart" counter.  It is still serializing the "don't launch a reprisal wave for at least 3 minutes after that AI player's salvage goes from 0 to greater-than-zero".

More of a savescum punisher, right now ;)

But will fix for next version; right now my working copy's a bit of a mess while I try to unify the "on-death" logic for ships (preliminary to having reclaimed units not give salvage).
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: AI War Beta 7.011-7.012 "Salvaged Resources" Released!
« Reply #80 on: March 22, 2014, 12:14:29 am »
This update does remind me (now that I play AI Wars again)

I really want to just be able to pick a map, then select my starter ships. Rather then select both. I'll dig up the thread that lets me hack to do that in the meantime.
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: AI War Beta 7.011-7.012 "Salvaged Resources" Released!
« Reply #81 on: March 22, 2014, 02:26:10 am »
inability to crank out ships as quickly as the strategic reserves replenished
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13588.msg164482.html#msg164482
aka cloacker starships + warheads = empty reserve
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 02:44:31 am by Kahuna »
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
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Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: AI War Beta 7.011-7.012 "Salvaged Resources" Released!
« Reply #82 on: March 22, 2014, 09:00:03 am »
This update does remind me (now that I play AI Wars again)

I really want to just be able to pick a map, then select my starter ships. Rather then select both. I'll dig up the thread that lets me hack to do that in the meantime.

Wait there is a hack for that? Can you link the thread or PM it to me? So many possibilities...

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 7.011-7.012 "Salvaged Resources" Released!
« Reply #83 on: March 22, 2014, 09:22:44 am »
FYI, my current target for 7.013 is to have it out before noon on Monday; I'd thought of doing it today but there's a fair bit more work, then a good bit of testing, and by the time I could get it out it wouldn't leave much buffer for catching critical bug reports, etc.
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: AI War Beta 7.011-7.012 "Salvaged Resources" Released!
« Reply #84 on: March 22, 2014, 10:16:15 am »
Wait there is a hack for that? Can you link the thread or PM it to me? So many possibilities...

It's a save file edit.  Basically you replace the ship you chose with the ship you want.

Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: AI War Beta 7.011-7.012 "Salvaged Resources" Released!
« Reply #85 on: March 22, 2014, 12:49:33 pm »
After a few test runs I found that I rather enjoy the new salvage ball. It can be quite fun. Rather hard on SBS, TDL, Nienzul Carriers, and the like, due to shear number of drones being spawned and dying. However, it feels appropriate. You get to spam a ton of drones against the AI, and then the AI gets the salvage and uses it against you.

However, one thing I really hated was the rather big nerf this feels to zombie makers, IE, Nienzul Shadowships, Nienzul Fortress, and of course, the Botnet Golem. If I eat a wave, or get my Botnet and Shadow Battleship into enemy territory and clear out an AI world, I shouldn't have to deal with the free salvage the AI gets for killing zombies that will inevitably enter AI space and die. Typically they go in small groups, dying without ever doing much, unless the zombifier was already on an AI world in the first place.

The idea of units outside of my control giving the AI free salvage doesn't feel right. It's one thing with drones, because I control the unit spawning the drones. I can hold back such units for only defending my worlds, knowing that in either neutral or AI territory they will feed the AI salvage. Or I can use them in AI space, and have to deal with the salvage they feed the AI. Given how powerful such units are, and the rather low cost of drones, this is more than acceptable. But even if the zombifying unit is in my space, the zombies that get made will eventually end up in either neutral or AI space. And there is no way I can keep that from happening. The entire point of zombies is that they are uncontrollable, hyper aggressive units. And if I use a zombiefyer in AI or neutral space, I don't get any salvage, while the AI will get salvage from killing the zombies.

Personally, I feel that zombie units shouldn't give salvage to either player. Yes this is more of a buff to players than the AI, as it is players that will control such units more often than the AI. But while a Botnet backed by a Nienzul Shadow Battleship and MSDs can almost eat entire CPAs by themselves, the AI is going to get most of those resources back due to them getting salvage for any player unit dying in either their space or neutral space. And the only way I get any salvage, is if I allow that same CPA to make to my worlds in the first place. I beat back their big rush, kept my worlds safe, and now the AI gets back a percentage of the very same rush it tried to kill me with, just because I used zombie making tactics? Why even use a Botnet golem anymore? I already have to deal with periodic exos just to have the right to try and get ONE, its completely irreplaceable, and even with 100 million HP, it's rather fragile.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 7.011-7.012 "Salvaged Resources" Released!
« Reply #86 on: March 22, 2014, 01:07:14 pm »
Ok, we can try it with zombies giving no salvage to the AI :)
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Offline Toranth

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Re: AI War Beta 7.011-7.012 "Salvaged Resources" Released!
« Reply #87 on: March 22, 2014, 05:36:07 pm »
Ok, we can try it with zombies giving no salvage to the AI :)
May I also request that neutral systems not grant reprisal rights to the AI? 

I lost a system during an unexpected visit from a H/K (btw - there seems to be something odd with the H/K factory) and every unit that died after the command station added to the AI's reprisal.  Seems like a double punishment - lose a system AND the AI gets stronger.  A permanently enabled version of Shark, sort of.


I also found something else wierd.  When AI salvage gets high enough it triggers a reprisal wave, right?  However, when the wave launches, it resets the salvage total to zero.  This means that anything that dies in AI (or neutral) space between when the wave is announced and when it launches does not count towards ANY reprisal wave.

I was able to repeat that a couple of times, too, by waiting at +!!! until the next natural wave and looking at the logs.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 7.011-7.012 "Salvaged Resources" Released!
« Reply #88 on: March 22, 2014, 05:47:20 pm »
May I also request that neutral systems not grant reprisal rights to the AI?
I've gone back and forth on that.  I agree that having it happen in was-just-a-human-system-a-moment-ago is a problem, as that's a double-whammy.  It'd also be nice to not have it be a huge nerf to beachheading (in the sense of permanent defenses adjacent to but not in your territory).

On the other hand, I don't want "losing a huge offensive fleetball" to not cause any significant reprisal salvage just because you popped the AI command station a few seconds before the casualties really started pouring in.

A possible solution that comes to mind is that "if it's a neutral planet, and you have supply there, the AI gets no reprisal salvage from your losses there", which covers border losses and beachheading.  But doesn't cover the loss of isolated outposts.

Another alternative is to say that a the presence of a human command station in the last X minutes prevents reprisal salvage, such that probably by then the battle is over and thus not contributing large amounts.  The problem there is that the time threshold wouldn't really be an obvious thing (it seems like a strange thing to display that countdown on the interface).

So perhaps just having it not happen on neutrals at all is the simplest next step, the idea being that if someone's willing to spend 20 AIP making a planet neutral to avoid reprisal salvage, well, have at it.  We'll see :)


Quote
I also found something else wierd.  When AI salvage gets high enough it triggers a reprisal wave, right?  However, when the wave launches, it resets the salvage total to zero.  This means that anything that dies in AI (or neutral) space between when the wave is announced and when it launches does not count towards ANY reprisal wave.

I was able to repeat that a couple of times, too, by waiting at +!!! until the next natural wave and looking at the logs.
That's odd: it's supposed to only zero out the AISalvage counter on an AI player when a reprisal wave is announced.  Not when one is launched.  Reprisal salvage that comes in after the announcement (whether it's before or after launch) goes towards the next reprisal wave.  Which is announced at least 10 minutes after the previous one was announced (and may be announced much later if it takes that long to reach the minimum quantity of reprisal salvage).  Just to be clear, by "announced"  I mean the moment it shows up in the alert box.
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Offline Chthon

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Re: AI War Beta 7.011-7.012 "Salvaged Resources" Released!
« Reply #89 on: March 22, 2014, 05:59:41 pm »
May I also request that neutral systems not grant reprisal rights to the AI?
I've gone back and forth on that.  I agree that having it happen in was-just-a-human-system-a-moment-ago is a problem, as that's a double-whammy.  It'd also be nice to not have it be a huge nerf to beachheading (in the sense of permanent defenses adjacent to but not in your territory).

On the other hand, I don't want "losing a huge offensive fleetball" to not cause any significant reprisal salvage just because you popped the AI command station a few seconds before the casualties really started pouring in.

A possible solution that comes to mind is that "if it's a neutral planet, and you have supply there, the AI gets no reprisal salvage from your losses there", which covers border losses and beachheading.  But doesn't cover the loss of isolated outposts.

Another alternative is to say that a the presence of a human command station in the last X minutes prevents reprisal salvage, such that probably by then the battle is over and thus not contributing large amounts.  The problem there is that the time threshold wouldn't really be an obvious thing (it seems like a strange thing to display that countdown on the interface).

So perhaps just having it not happen on neutrals at all is the simplest next step, the idea being that if someone's willing to spend 20 AIP making a planet neutral to avoid reprisal salvage, well, have at it.  We'll see :)
IDEA:  The command station CD timer.  If it is ticking down or if a command station is building it is not counted towards AI Salvage as it's not yet a "neutral system"  If the timer expires and you do not immediately rebuild, then it's your fault for not staking your claim.

Isolated outposts however will still remain a problem if you don't watch it and stealth a rebuilder around there to restart your ownership.