AI War Beta 7.006-7.007 "Design Meddling" Released!

[keith.lamothe]

Keith:
Having not played with these new hacking things yet (want to try and finish my current game first), I have to ask: is it possible to have both types going at once (through multiple hackers)?  If so, what happens?

Whichever one finishes first "wins", though the AI's immediate response (but not the ongoing hacking-progress balance that controls later responses) will be more intense due to the presence of multiple hacking devices.

[Draco18s]

Keith:
Having not played with these new hacking things yet (want to try and finish my current game first), I have to ask: is it possible to have both types going at once (through multiple hackers)?  If so, what happens?

Whichever one finishes first "wins", though the AI's immediate response (but not the ongoing hacking-progress balance that controls later responses) will be more intense due to the presence of multiple hacking devices.

So if I paused the game and caused both to start at the exact same tick, and assuming both survived, it'd be a race condition* for whichever processes first at the end?

Makes sense.

*Likely whichever one actually starts first, if it's a command, it'd get read from the queue first, thus finish first.

[keith.lamothe]

Presumably if they both start in the same game-second they'll finish in the same game-second, and the one added to the planet's unit lists earlier (and thus checked before the other during normal processing) will "win".  The processing is serial (rather than multithreaded-parallel) so it's not a race condition per se.  Anyway, from the player perspective it's just a "bad idea" because you'll get extra (short term) pain for no gain

[Draco18s]

Presumably if they both start in the same game-second they'll finish in the same game-second, and the one added to the planet's unit lists earlier (and thus checked before the other during normal processing) will "win".  The processing is serial (rather than multithreaded-parallel) so it's not a race condition per se.  Anyway, from the player perspective it's just a "bad idea" because you'll get extra (short term) pain for no gain

I knew it wasn't a multi-thread problem, it was more a matter of "what's the tiebreaker here?"  And it is the unit list order, gotcha.  So to the player it will appear random, but not actually random (repeatable with the same outcome via save/load).

[keith.lamothe]

Well, somewhat random, but from the player's perspective it would be the first hacker placed.  Presumably while paused, if that was to happen in the same game-second.

[Draco18s]

it would be the first hacker placed

*Nod*
I just meant that the player might not remember what order they were built in (e.g. same unit,* given different commands after being moved onto the planet, etc.)

*Like I said, haven't updated so I don't actually know if they're different units

[PokerChen]

Ok, so second question:

- What happens when you get a ship-type from a backup server and then capture an ARS with it as the first choice?

- If you then unlock the second choice on the ARS, what happens if you already have all three choices shown by the ARS from backup-servers? Will a random ship-type unlock, or are you out of luck?

[Bognor]

While we're at it, Keith, do you have the wave and reinforce multipliers for the AI types added in Vengeance of the Machine?  Cos Zharmad has updated the opponent types list on the wiki 

And can anyone tell me what mark(s) of ships you get from hacking a backup server?

[Draco18s]

what happens if you already have all three choices shown by the ARS from backup-servers? Will a random ship-type unlock, or are you out of luck?

And what's the case if you hack it?

[PokerChen]

Research completed.

Marks you get from hacking for an AI design: You get only the mark-Is, like the ARS. Overlaps with existing ship unlocks will be wasted.

ARS research if you already have the designs hacked elsewhere. Won't automatically grant you a new one (grants the first one when unhacked), so overlaps will be wasted. (Sucker.)

ARS hacking if you already have the potential designs hacked: unknown. I can't hack it due to having -747959.76 HaP.

Also...

1) I noted an interesting side-effect with the HaP accounting when hacking multiple ship designs. My Hap was 30 before this hack in a trivial testing game, and after hacking for 11 designs at once: -8519.76.  The correct accounting is done after the fact - since the next hack fatally chugs the game.

2) One AI's designs isn't necessarily stored on its own planets, but can be on the other AI's planets. I'm seeing two copies of some ships on 2x Everything AIs and this is probably the most likely explanation.  These don't get coloured according to their target AI.

[Bognor]

Quality !!SCIENCE!!

Cool, thanks.

So...

• You can hack a Fabricator to get Mark V ships for 20 HaP

Or...

• You can hack a Design Backup to get Mark I ships for 50 HaP

[Fluffiest]

So...

• You can hack a Fabricator to get Mark V ships for 20 HaP

Or...

• You can hack a Design Backup to get Mark I ships for 50 HaP

Or you can capture the Fabricator, getting the mk V ships for 0 HaP. The 20 HaP is more for the convenience of not having to protect an isolated and inconveniently-placed irreplaceable structure.

The 50 HaP for the design backup, however, is the ONLY way to get that ship type.

[Vacuity]

Also, with the appropriate knowledge expenditure, you can get the Mk II, III and IV's of the ship you get from the design backup, the MkV fab will only ever offer the Mk V version.  Also, choosing to download the design means that you cannot deny it to the AI, which with some ship designs like stealth battleships can be a fairly serious consideration.  No fab ever offers the chance to remove a ship type from the AI's arsenal, so there is a trade to be made in terms of opportunities with the design backups.

[keith.lamothe]

Quality !!SCIENCE!!

Cool, thanks.

So...

• You can hack a Fabricator to get Mark V ships for 20 HaP

Or...

• You can hack a Design Backup to get Mark I ships for 50 HaP

You can also get mkII-IV of that type normally after the backup hack.  Sure, costs knowledge, but so it goes.

Which isn't to say that the costs don't need adjustment, still figuring that out

[PokerChen]

Which isn't to say that the costs don't need adjustment, still figuring that out

Leaving the relative worth of fabricators to ship-designs for the moment, I'm inclined to think that the backup server hacking is worth more than the ARS redirection hacking. Just a bit more, for a couple of reasons:

1) The backup server hacking always nets you 1 more ship-type unless it's covered by an ARS unlock.
- 1b) In the overlapping case, the worth of the ARS is reduced. You either have to hack to get a new type, or your hacking choices have been reduced to 2.

2) If the players so choose, they can pre-determine what backup servers are going to be out there by choosing their AI-type. This is a direct advantage to the backup server, e.g. knowing that an Artillerist will always have desirable ship-types somewhere in the galaxy, so players can plan to spend HaP on a certain ship-unlock rather than a probable improvemet.