Author Topic: AI War Beta 6.047 "Activating Vengeful Sanding Machine MkIII" Released!  (Read 4235 times)

Offline Lancefighter

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As I understand it, the batch explore will, lets say, build 20 scout mk2s, and then just issue the auto explore for them?

I dont suppose it would be possible to set up a modified picket order?
What I am looking to do is automate putting up single scout pickets on planets 2+ away or so. In theory, all I want this to so is to group move the entire set of scouts to a planet that needs picketing. After all scouts have arrived, and stopped, it then leaves one behind and repeats this order.

Probably a lot more difficult to implement then that, but its something that would likely save me a lot of time (up to date scout intel is super important)
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Offline zleorg

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I am enjoying the auto-explore.  Nice to just be able to send out a wave whenever I'm back at the home base.

This has probably been like this for a while but I just noticed it after the patch.  Is the MRLS Guardian supposed to be a Medium hull? I can't figure out what to send after it since it also has a bonus against Light which would be the fighters I want to send in.  The guard posts are Heavy and so far all the other guardian/guard posts are the same (at least the ones I've been able to compare tonight.) 

I also ran into a really strange exo-wave tonight.  I had most of my fleet on a planet clearing stuff out when it spawned.  It then just dances back and forth between the wormhole to my first planet and my blob of guys.  It just goes back and forth a bunch until it decides to finally go through to die to turrets.  I replayed it a couple times and they'll tend to go in quicker if I stop moving the blob around.  I can't keep them dancing forever but it was just weird to watch as I was circling around.  Maybe we were playing chicken and since I didn't get the message they just got bored and went to find new friends.

Offline TechSY730

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This has probably been like this for a while but I just noticed it after the patch.  Is the MRLS Guardian supposed to be a Medium hull? I can't figure out what to send after it since it also has a bonus against Light which would be the fighters I want to send in.  The guard posts are Heavy and so far all the other guardian/guard posts are the same (at least the ones I've been able to compare tonight.)

Whoops, another "counters it's counter" oversight. ;)

Quote
I also ran into a really strange exo-wave tonight.  I had most of my fleet on a planet clearing stuff out when it spawned.  It then just dances back and forth between the wormhole to my first planet and my blob of guys.  It just goes back and forth a bunch until it decides to finally go through to die to turrets.  I replayed it a couple times and they'll tend to go in quicker if I stop moving the blob around.  I can't keep them dancing forever but it was just weird to watch as I was circling around.  Maybe we were playing chicken and since I didn't get the message they just got bored and went to find new friends.

I see the same thing with attacking hybrids. I thought it was doing some sort of cool, kiting, "stutter step" type thing, until it broke off it's low health retreat to come back. At that point, I realized it was a bug.
Sadly, I don't have a save at the moment.

Offline TechSY730

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I also ran into a really strange exo-wave tonight.  I had most of my fleet on a planet clearing stuff out when it spawned.  It then just dances back and forth between the wormhole to my first planet and my blob of guys.  It just goes back and forth a bunch until it decides to finally go through to die to turrets.  I replayed it a couple times and they'll tend to go in quicker if I stop moving the blob around.  I can't keep them dancing forever but it was just weird to watch as I was circling around.  Maybe we were playing chicken and since I didn't get the message they just got bored and went to find new friends.

I see the same thing with attacking hybrids. I thought it was doing some sort of cool, kiting, "stutter step" type thing, until it broke off it's low health retreat to come back. At that point, I realized it was a bug.
Sadly, I don't have a save at the moment.

OK, I just got one example of this.

In the attached save, the hybrid on <the planet named in the save> is "dancing" around (alternating between attacking and retreating), when it should be retreating.
It will also do this if like trying to "restock" on modules or escorts and there are enemies on the planet.

This may or may not be the same thing that is causing exos to "dance".

EDIT: Attached is another save where the hybrid has more health and a little less is going on, which should make it easier to watch. It hasn't started "dancing" yet, but it probably will soon.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 01:37:04 am by TechSY730 »

Offline zleorg

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I did see that the MLRS fleetship we get is the same way with Medium hull and a Light bonus so since Guardians are able to move around maybe it should stay that way.  I'm fine with having something that just takes more ships to kill instead of a clear cut winner but I bet that at 10/10 that would hurt a tad more. 

The stutter step thing would be cool to try and bait me into sending my ships into them while they have cover of a guard post.  Sadly these guys were using wormhole guard posts which aren't exactly scary.  I do have a save of it happening but it's right at the end so they don't go on for very long.  If it's useful I'll track down which one it was tomorrow.

Maybe the next expansion could be the AI Dance Groove?  They could learn the stutter step, the Macarena, a line dance, the waltz, and maybe the conga line?  They'll dance on into the system and all your forces will line up and dance out with them to meet the cookie monster. 

Oh and Keith you gave the Raptor a 5 bonus instead of the 6 you posted.


Offline TechSY730

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Two things. Is the raid guardian still cheaper in exo waves despite being stronger than an equal marked AI raid starship? (Semi-related, should they still get the "charge through wormhole even if out strengthed" flag? Do AI raid starships get that flag?)

Two, should the captive human settlements be added to the list of "seeded away from the wormhole" capturables (similar request for the human rebellion settlements if those are preseeded instead of generated mid game)
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 02:13:21 am by TechSY730 »

Offline Histidine

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Dancing exos/hybrids may be the same issue as my mantis ticket here: 0011781: FS shard chase exos behave in indecisive manner

Offline TechSY730

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I also ran into a really strange exo-wave tonight.  I had most of my fleet on a planet clearing stuff out when it spawned.  It then just dances back and forth between the wormhole to my first planet and my blob of guys.  It just goes back and forth a bunch until it decides to finally go through to die to turrets.  I replayed it a couple times and they'll tend to go in quicker if I stop moving the blob around.  I can't keep them dancing forever but it was just weird to watch as I was circling around.  Maybe we were playing chicken and since I didn't get the message they just got bored and went to find new friends.

I see the same thing with attacking hybrids. I thought it was doing some sort of cool, kiting, "stutter step" type thing, until it broke off it's low health retreat to come back. At that point, I realized it was a bug.
Sadly, I don't have a save at the moment.

OK, I just got one example of this.

In the attached save, the hybrid on <the planet named in the save> is "dancing" around (alternating between attacking and retreating), when it should be retreating.
It will also do this if like trying to "restock" on modules or escorts and there are enemies on the planet.

This may or may not be the same thing that is causing exos to "dance".


Actually, I think the problem is a bit worse than this.

I'm now seeing this behavior from ordinary threat ships as well.

EDIT: I'll post a save of regular threat doing this tomorrow. Right now, my Internet connection isn't working well.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 02:34:35 am by TechSY730 »

Offline Kahuna

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Whoops, another "counters it's counter" oversight. ;)
Might not be an oversight. It might just be an MRLS ship on steroids.
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline Kahuna

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Quote
Lightning Torpedoes (spawned by Lightning Torpedo Frigates) can now be given direct commands from the player.
HA
Quote
Lightning Torpedoes (spawned by Lightning Torpedo Frigates) can now be given direct commands from the player.

 >D Unlimited power!  >D
AHHAHA
I LoL'd out loud! But hey if it's fun its ok! Just like Space Planet.. OPS.. never mind! plz don't nerf
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline Tridus

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I also ran into a really strange exo-wave tonight.  I had most of my fleet on a planet clearing stuff out when it spawned.  It then just dances back and forth between the wormhole to my first planet and my blob of guys.  It just goes back and forth a bunch until it decides to finally go through to die to turrets.  I replayed it a couple times and they'll tend to go in quicker if I stop moving the blob around.  I can't keep them dancing forever but it was just weird to watch as I was circling around.  Maybe we were playing chicken and since I didn't get the message they just got bored and went to find new friends.

I see the same thing with attacking hybrids. I thought it was doing some sort of cool, kiting, "stutter step" type thing, until it broke off it's low health retreat to come back. At that point, I realized it was a bug.
Sadly, I don't have a save at the moment.

OK, I just got one example of this.

In the attached save, the hybrid on <the planet named in the save> is "dancing" around (alternating between attacking and retreating), when it should be retreating.
It will also do this if like trying to "restock" on modules or escorts and there are enemies on the planet.

This may or may not be the same thing that is causing exos to "dance".

EDIT: Attached is another save where the hybrid has more health and a little less is going on, which should make it easier to watch. It hasn't started "dancing" yet, but it probably will soon.

I've seen it happening with regular ships, but could never duplicate it reliably in a save for those. Would be nice to see this fixed, it's silly when the AI can't decide what it wants to do.

Offline LordSloth

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Following on from "The point of taking more planets" thread, does
"toned down the mapgen initial unit seeding for planets adjacent to a human homeworld; goes easier on starships, fortresses, etc.
Thanks to... probably everyone for suggesting this."

account for smaller maps? Possible addendum: If Planet(X) is within two (or three or whatever makes sense) hops of Homeworld (A or B) it ignores any rules of kindness.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Quote
Lightning Torpedoes (spawned by Lightning Torpedo Frigates) can now be given direct commands from the player.

 >D Unlimited power!  >D
Yea, I'm sure those will be cheesable out the wazoo.  But it's advanced enough and probably fun enough that that's fine, the nerf will eventually come ;)

During one test (before controllable torpedoes) the full I-V caps of frigates built up a really honkin-big pile of torpedoes during one attack, such that pretty much any follow-up attack that came in was simply annihilated by the "stockpile" due to the 3-minute lifetime.

Flashbacks to Harrington podnaughts stacking salvos.


Quote from: Lancefighter
As I understand it, the batch explore will, lets say, build 20 scout mk2s, and then just issue the auto explore for them?

I dont suppose it would be possible to set up a modified picket order?
What I am looking to do is automate putting up single scout pickets on planets 2+ away or so. In theory, all I want this to so is to group move the entire set of scouts to a planet that needs picketing. After all scouts have arrived, and stopped, it then leaves one behind and repeats this order.

Probably a lot more difficult to implement then that, but its something that would likely save me a lot of time (up to date scout intel is super important)
I did actually implement a scout-picket equivalent setting but it's a lot more fiddly to work with so I commented it back out.  Basically there are two things we'd want it to do to be properly automated:

1) If multiple scouts succeed in picketing the planet, either scrap the extras or retry the picket logic with them
2) And whenever a scout successfully pickets, reduce the "target batch size" for that scout type on the building space dock by 1 (otherwise it will never send another batch)

And neither of those two things is really all that reasonable to code, I'm afraid.

But you can use the "manual" "Auto Scout Picket" order from the context menu with scouts selected to send a batch of them out to try to picket stuff.  You'll need to scrap the "extras" on each picketed world manually, though (it won't send one at an already-picketed planet, but it may send more than one against a non-picketed planet because one may not survive).


On MLRS guardian being Medium hull: yea, there's the MLRS fleet ship, and there's also the more recent rule that guardians should be medium hull so that fighters counter them.  But given the MLRS bonus vs light, I can just make these have an artillery hull so bombers counter them (as they counter missile frigates) instead.


Quote
Oh and Keith you gave the Raptor a 5 bonus instead of the 6 you posted.
Haha, oops.  It's just a typo in the release notes, 5x is what it needs to be to give the relative percentages listed.  If Raptors weren't cloaked (and blazing fast) I'd go for 6x and maybe some more base dps, but as it is that'd be a bit much.


On the Infiltration and Raid guardian exo cost thing... yea, they get more DPS than the Raid Starship, and start 1 tier lower exo-wise.  The Raid Starship has more durability due to the armor, and more speed, but that is a bit out of whack.  Will actually just bump all the non-dire guardians up two tiers.  May be a little too nice but not by much.


On the AI unit dancing I'll take a look; some exos naturally dance due to a long range leader (and all do when approaching a wormhole transition, in many cases) and the fact that the AI doesn't take 10-30 seconds to loop through all its units in a significant battle anymore sometimes exhibits behavior which looks like that, but it sounds like it may be conflicting with the "Galaxy-Wide-Chase" targeting of the exos, which is something that can be fixed.

Normal threat dancing is probably something else, and probably not real dancing (i.e. the situation is changing, so its decisions change, but eventually settle on something if the situation warrants it), but if there's any saves where it can be demonstrated I can certainly take a look.

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Offline keith.lamothe

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Ok, nailed the dancing stuff with the exo leader (or exo orphan) and hybrid ships.  Very straightforward actually: since the reorganization the AI tactics code wasn't excluding them from the normal checks for retreat/attack/etc, so the AI logic would give one set of orders and their special logic would give another.  Not hard to fix.

None of that has any bearing on normal threat ships, so in the absence of a save showing otherwise I think the normal AI threat logic is free of any real dancing issues that aren't just caused by the situation changing that fast.
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Offline TechSY730

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Ok, nailed the dancing stuff with the exo leader (or exo orphan) and hybrid ships.  Very straightforward actually: since the reorganization the AI tactics code wasn't excluding them from the normal checks for retreat/attack/etc, so the AI logic would give one set of orders and their special logic would give another.  Not hard to fix.

None of that has any bearing on normal threat ships, so in the absence of a save showing otherwise I think the normal AI threat logic is free of any real dancing issues that aren't just caused by the situation changing that fast.

Here is a save with normal threat doing this. (I'm in a place with better Internet now)

Though thinking about it, the turrets being destroyed and rebuilt and destroyed...and so on may have something to do with it.



Also, are starships still overall more expensive than guardians in exo waves, even if there are now some exceptions?