AI War Beta 6.035-6.038 "Dire Protector" Released!

[chemical_art]

MK IV couter attack posts with a spireling certainly is !fun!


Maybe too much so, because I think the BB's are possible even on 7 with IVs. Maybe not two per counter attack post, but I do remember one popping up.

[keith.lamothe]

On the lightning frigate, is it just that they're too hard to kill?  Or you're getting like 100 of them at once? 

Can you outrun the torpedoes?

[chemical_art]

On the lightning frigate, is it just that they're too hard to kill?  Or you're getting like 100 of them at once? 

Can you outrun the torpedoes?

Stat wise, on paper, they are fine.

As for the lightnings, that is interesting idea to kite, I would have to ditch 1/3 of my fleet to do so, and even then it would be almost dead even with my starships, but possible.

It's their numbers that is the issue. For example in my save.

Looking it over, a carrier self deployed. Out of its 160 ships, 20 of them were the frigates. So a ship with 25x the points was deployed as 1/8 of a cpa wave. Yikes!

Their problem is that they stack worst then blades or zombards, they stack worst then enclaves even in large numbers. Their missile stacks so rapidly...


actually, for starters, it is the missiles that are a problem.

Will dig out maths to back up assertion, but:

A) Missiles blow up when destroyed.
B) The window of range for units with a bonus to take down missiles before it hits is really small.
   1) The window is such there is time for one volley
C) Missiles take more then one volley to go down even with bonused units
D) Units still try to take down missiles even when in range to hit

The result is a cluster-storm of many missiles getting through. Without very, very intense micro its almost impossible to counter the missiles.



Will brainstorm what can be done...

[chemical_art]

While brainstorming, a fair out (meaning in ability to be done) but possible solution:

Riots get access to point defense modules. These modules are railguns with great range a decent reload. They can only hit "small" units such as blades, tackle drones, attack drones, [lightning frigate] missiles, etc. With their weapon's high speed and instant hit, it should stop these projectiles from reaching their destination.

Alas, you'd have to put in flags as to what small units are, and make the new module.

Still, it is actually the cleanest thing so far I can think of to address them. And to address the gripes of those other units.

[chemical_art]

As for the frigates themselves...I have ideas of potential avenues...


A) Make the missiles frailer
B) Make the explosion range smaller
C) Make the missiles not explode unless they hit


but you see, when the frigates are used in player numbers, things are ok! And I really don't want to nerf the players' ability to use them.

That drags in to having an AI version of the ship, but that of course is to be avoided at all possible.

So what is the solution? To increase the AI cost? That would help...but I've run into this problem really early game and I'm not stressing myself otherwise against the AI. Meaning if cost was buffed, it probably would still be a problem late game, and its not like I'll really get tools to intercept the missiles better...

[chemical_art]

Another idea is to change the frigate's hull to something like composite, and make its range closer to 7 or 8k. This would allow its counter, missile frigates, to engage at range without worrying about getting hit by the missile barrage, and the frigates are mostly immune to the missiles anyway.

This certainly seems better then the current situation where, for the most part, bombers have to get so close to the frigate that the missiles always hit them.

[ZaneWolfe]

Another idea is to change the frigate's hull to something like composite, and make its range closer to 7 or 8k. This would allow its counter, missile frigates, to engage at range without worrying about getting hit by the missile barrage, and the frigates are mostly immune to the missiles anyway.

This certainly seems better then the current situation where, for the most part, bombers have to get so close to the frigate that the missiles always hit them.

This works best I feel. I also think that you should lower the attrition rate on the warheads. IMO their range seems rather small to me for what they are. I would say give them an attrition time of 2 min at least. That would give them enough range to cover most systems, without preventing them from being kited by a faster or a more micro controlled group. Because looking at it from a player controlled point of view, the range on the warheads feels really small to me.

On a related note, would using something with a nice shotgun like shot, ie Spire Railclusters, and having them prioritize the warheads allow you to also counter the frigates?

[chemical_art]

On a related note, would using something with a nice shotgun like shot, ie Spire Railclusters, and having them prioritize the warheads allow you to also counter the frigates?

Yes, the key features to stop the missiles are:

A) Able to kill in one volley
B) Very fast projectile
C) Intercepts missiles before they are within explosion range.

Railcrulusters, iirc, do that

[onyhow]

Well finally the custom search get the ability to show immobile structures on AI planets...been waiting for a LONG time...(I reported that like half a year ago)

You might want to close a ticket here though...

[Toranth]

Well finally the custom search get the ability to show immobile structures on AI planets...been waiting for a LONG time...

You might want to close a ticket here though...

The Broad Search does not show Dire Guardian Lairs at the moment: something that might be important to keep track of.

[Bognor]

Also, the support corps still mentions it seeds in some mobile repairers ships, which the AI doesn't actually get.

Added to 0011485: Compilation of text problems Mark III.

[keith.lamothe]

Well finally the custom search get the ability to show immobile structures on AI planets...been waiting for a LONG time...(I reported that like half a year ago)

You might want to close a ticket here though...

Sorry, if I'd known it was reported by you I would have credited you in the release notes (just added that now).

And yea, some stuff takes a very long time for me to get to, because other stuff is closer to my attention or more obvious in priority, etc.

[keith.lamothe]

Well finally the custom search get the ability to show immobile structures on AI planets...been waiting for a LONG time...

You might want to close a ticket here though...

The Broad Search does not show Dire Guardian Lairs at the moment: something that might be important to keep track of.

The Broad Search would show them under their Broad category, which iirc is "Heavy Defense" or something like that.  Same category as Raid Engines.

If you want to search for them, you can use the Narrow filter, which does have an entry for Dire Guardian Lair.

[orzelek]

While brainstorming, a fair out (meaning in ability to be done) but possible solution:

Riots get access to point defense modules. These modules are railguns with great range a decent reload. They can only hit "small" units such as blades, tackle drones, attack drones, [lightning frigate] missiles, etc. With their weapon's high speed and instant hit, it should stop these projectiles from reaching their destination.

Alas, you'd have to put in flags as to what small units are, and make the new module.

Still, it is actually the cleanest thing so far I can think of to address them. And to address the gripes of those other units.

This actually sounds like very neat solution to counter some of most annoying units. Gives power to players to counter them in nice way and that new module wouldn't be really useful against anything else.

[chemical_art]

This actually sounds like very neat solution to counter some of most annoying units. Gives power to players to counter them in nice way and that new module wouldn't be really useful against anything else.

The more I try to explore other options, the more I like the point defense module:

A) It's a base game option to help counter a variety of niche but very powerful weapons
B) It fits the riot's goal of keeping the peace
C) It provides an option to Riots for those who don't enjoy engine damage
D) It doesn't step on any other defenses that I can think of (counter missile turrets, protector starship, etc)
E) Since both riots and the units it counters "carriers" (lightning frigates, blade spawners, tackle drone launchers) are both not effected by cap number changes, it would not be impossible to balance them.

And actually, as far as graphics go, it could use the FS "sniper" module, and just call it point defense.