Arcen Forums

General Category => AI War Classic => Topic started by: keith.lamothe on March 27, 2013, 01:05:51 PM

Title: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 27, 2013, 01:05:51 PM
(Crossposted from this blog post (http://arcengames.blogspot.com/2013/03/ai-war-beta-6014-de-faulting-logic.html))

This one is a relatively small release focusing on balance issues and fixing a few bugs introduced in recent versions.  We also addressed some of the longstandingly high-voted mantis issues.

There would be more but we've been working hard on another project (that we might drop some hints on tomorrow, we'll see).  Of course it's not another apparatus designed to deliver a "you lose!" experience to players.  We'd never do that.

Update: 6.015 hotfix to fix some exo and cloaking bugs in 6.014 that could cause significant problems.

Enjoy!

This is a standard update that you can download through the  in-game updater itself, if you already have 4.000 or later. When you launch the game, you'll see the notice of the update having been found if you're connected to the Internet at the time.  If you don't have 4.000 or later, you can download that here.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Aklyon on March 27, 2013, 01:25:14 PM
There would be more but we've been working hard on another project (that we might drop some hints on tomorrow, we'll see).
*assortedcuriousnoises*
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Faulty Logic on March 27, 2013, 01:30:09 PM
:D.

Quote
here would be more but we've been working hard on another project
Still in AIWar though, right?

Quote
Would have done this for human home command stations too, but inevitably someone would get overwhelmed by an electric shuttle wave and then file a bug report when said shuttles just kind of stared helplessly at the human home command station.
But I thought immune to AoE doesn't protect against being directly targeted, so that couldn't happen. Besides, how could electric shuttles possibly overwhelm anyone?
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: orzelek on March 27, 2013, 01:31:49 PM
Hmm anti-starship guard posts were quite.. powerful and they were still buffed?
Poor starships....
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Hearteater on March 27, 2013, 01:52:56 PM
Actually the Anti-Starship were less painful than Missile Guard Posts for Starships.  So Anti-SS got buffed, Missile GP got nerfed.  It's a good day to be a Starship overall, consider Anti-SS are seeded much less often.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 27, 2013, 02:13:05 PM
Actually the Anti-Starship were less painful than Missile Guard Posts for Starships.  So Anti-SS got buffed, Missile GP got nerfed.  It's a good day to be a Starship overall, consider Anti-SS are seeded much less often.
Yep, I'd actually been really conservative with the anti-starship post's dps in the first go because the raw numbers looked terrifying, but feedback indicated it needed more and that the missile post was just brutal.  So here you go :)
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 27, 2013, 02:59:04 PM
But I thought immune to AoE doesn't protect against being directly targeted
I actually didn't test it, but iirc that only applies to things which actually fire a projectile which in turn actually hits some ship before going off aoe-style.  Or things which are the projectile (autobombs, warheads, etc) assuming they detonate by right-click-attacking rather than just scrapping.  But shuttles just zap in your general direction.

Quote
Besides, how could electric shuttles possibly overwhelm anyone?
I was wondering that myself.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Diazo on March 27, 2013, 03:06:57 PM
Besides, how could electric shuttles possibly overwhelm anyone?
I was wondering that myself.

You've never seen a 1500 strong mono-wave of electric shuttles have you? I won't say it overwhelmed me, but I lost a lot more of my defenses then I expected.

(This is long enough ago that they did not carrier combine, I was facing them all at once.)

D.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 27, 2013, 03:13:58 PM
You've never seen a 1500 strong mono-wave of electric shuttles have you?
Ouch.  At least, I haven't in a long time.

How long did it take them to do a full alpha with the enforced delay between firing?  Or were there so many that the first firing shuttles were done reloading before the last shuttle could fire and it was just a continuous ball of lightning?
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Diazo on March 27, 2013, 03:18:09 PM
I actually can't remember, we are talking a long time ago here.

It might even have been before the enforce firing delay was added. (That was only added in about 5.020 right?)

Still, I don't think anything Mk I survived, I remember my fleet ball swooping in and then being hidden behind all the health bars.  :o

D.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: TechSY730 on March 27, 2013, 03:28:30 PM
But I thought immune to AoE doesn't protect against being directly targeted
I actually didn't test it, but iirc that only applies to things which actually fire a projectile which in turn actually hits some ship before going off aoe-style.  Or things which are the projectile (autobombs, warheads, etc) assuming they detonate by right-click-attacking rather than just scrapping.  But shuttles just zap in your general direction.

Actually, I'm pretty sure lightning/armored warheads CAN be right clicked to detonate on a target, which would allow you to still hit the AI Home Command station.

Not sure myself, though.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Faulty Logic on March 27, 2013, 03:32:28 PM
Quote
Actually, I'm pretty sure lightning/armored warheads CAN be right clicked to detonate on a target, which would allow you to still hit the AI Home Command station.
No, it works as Keith intended. I just tested.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 27, 2013, 03:35:36 PM
I can see the TV advertisement now:

"Need to test something's resistance to warhead bombardment?

*BOOOOOOOOOM*

You know who to call."
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: orzelek on March 27, 2013, 04:05:52 PM
There is something missing in this beta.
FS attacks are quite shy. First wave came.. all others said that they are afraid and will hide behind Unhandled error.

See attachment for details.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 27, 2013, 04:18:12 PM
There is something missing in this beta.
FS attacks are quite shy. First wave came.. all others said that they are afraid and will hide behind Unhandled error.

See attachment for details.
Thanks, it was a problem in some logging code, I think.  Testing fix now.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 27, 2013, 04:19:47 PM
Acrtually, do you have a save?  I can try to reproduce it but there's no guarantee I'll get the problem you were having.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: orzelek on March 27, 2013, 04:50:58 PM
I did get this only on first FS chase. Next one was working correctly without surprises.
Save before it was triggered attached.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 27, 2013, 05:35:07 PM
Ok, I see the problem now, thanks.  Yea, it was what I thought it was, so got a fix for that now :)  Just a sec...
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 27, 2013, 05:42:29 PM
Update: 6.015 hotfix to fix some exo and cloaking bugs in 6.014 that could cause significant problems.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Cinth on March 27, 2013, 08:10:53 PM
Quote
Besides, how could electric shuttles possibly overwhelm anyone?
I was wondering that myself.

I'm going to have to set up a SS where I surround an AI HCS with a lot of ES... My current game is a potential candidate for such nonsense :) 
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Faulty Logic on March 28, 2013, 12:13:07 PM
Was implosion artillery nerfed recently? It has shorter range than I remember.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 28, 2013, 12:15:22 PM
Was implosion artillery nerfed recently? It has shorter range than I remember.
I'm not seeing anything in the release notes and I don't recall meaning to make that change.

That's not to say no change was made.  In any event, however it got this way, is there a problem with the current range?
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Faulty Logic on March 28, 2013, 12:24:27 PM
Quote
is there a problem with the current range?
Yeah, with planetwide range they were a niche unit, now they are a joke. In big battles, where you find the targets they are good against, they evaporate.

I'm almost sure they had greater-than-fortress range in 6.009.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 28, 2013, 12:43:33 PM
Quote
is there a problem with the current range?
Yeah, with planetwide range they were a niche unit, now they are a joke. In big battles, where you find the targets they are good against, they evaporate.

I'm almost sure they had greater-than-fortress range in 6.009.
Doing an svn-show-log between 6.005 and 6.015 (the latest public version) I see no changes to this line in the spirecraft implosion def:

Code: [Select]
this.AttackRange = 18000 + ( this.ShipLevel * 2000 );
Add 3000 for actual in-game range, iirc.  So 23000 for mkI, 31000 for mkV.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Faulty Logic on March 28, 2013, 12:56:19 PM
Oh right, it has greater-than-AI-fortress range. Sorry.

Nevermind, still useful in some circumstances then. Though these (along with siege towers and ion blasters) could use a buff.

Do they still cause implosion from under forcefields?
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 28, 2013, 01:03:21 PM
Do they still cause implosion from under forcefields?
You mean do they skip the 75% damage reduction when firing under a standard ff rule?  That hasn't changed, at least.  Iirc, they do ignore that rule (by bug more than intent, but it's ok).
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Faulty Logic on March 28, 2013, 03:53:58 PM
Exos: what did you do? Ow ow ow and more ow.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 28, 2013, 03:58:46 PM
Exos: what did you do? Ow ow ow and more ow.
You suggested adding an additional +1x to the diff 10 ones (from 5x to 6x), and that's what I did :)
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 28, 2013, 03:59:49 PM
I also made the zenith and spire starships more expensive as exo picks, so that should actually work in your favor.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Faulty Logic on March 28, 2013, 04:12:39 PM
You also gave each individual starship a big buff, which most certainly does not work in my favor given the number of them in exos.

They feel about right for 10/10, it's just that I was used to them before, where they didn't hurt nearly as much.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 28, 2013, 04:26:24 PM
You also gave each individual starship a big buff, which most certainly does not work in my favor given the number of them in exos.
I'm guessing you mean a few versions ago; didn't buff them again in 6.014 :)  But I think you've been exo-less for a bit now and they're welcoming you back home to paintown.

Quote
They feel about right for 10/10, it's just that I was used to them before, where they didn't hurt nearly as much.
Glad to hear they're not slacking off so much up there anymore ;)  Let me know if the impression changes.  As we've discussed in the other thread the higher-point exos (from more cities in FS, or more AIP in golems/spirecraft) tend to increase in pain kind of slowly due to the higher tier units costing exponentially more than the lower ones.  To the point that the later exos don't keep up with the additional benefits you're getting (in FS's case at least), perhaps, though I dunno.

Some composition logs from those exos wouldn't go amiss either, if you should find them convenient to collect, as I added some instrumentation on what the relative-strength numbers would have been, compared to the exo-cost points.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Faulty Logic on March 28, 2013, 04:44:21 PM
Quote
I'm guessing you mean a few versions ago; didn't buff them again in 6.014  :)
Yeah, that's what I meant. Did you increase their exo costs at that time?

Quote
Some composition logs from those exos wouldn't go amiss either, if you should find them convenient to collect, as I added some instrumentation on what the relative-strength numbers would have been, compared to the exo-cost points.
Ah, sorry, I don't have logs now. I'm enabling advanced logging now, should have them pretty soon.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 28, 2013, 04:51:21 PM
Quote
I'm guessing you mean a few versions ago; didn't buff them again in 6.014  :)
Yeah, that's what I meant. Did you increase their exo costs at that time?
The Zenith and Spire ones have had their exo costs increased twice, which means they cost like 2.5 or 4x as much as they used to, I forget.  The others stayed the same since their DPS came down, though that does mean more total HPs in an exo generally.

There's also the availability of the mkIV/mkV versions, which are probably better deals than the other stuff the AI can pick for those tiers.

Quote
Quote
Some composition logs from those exos wouldn't go amiss either, if you should find them convenient to collect, as I added some instrumentation on what the relative-strength numbers would have been, compared to the exo-cost points.
Ah, sorry, I don't have logs now. I'm enabling advanced logging now, should have them pretty soon.
If it's convenient; not like it's your job to give me data on Arcen's game ;)
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Cinth on March 28, 2013, 05:35:13 PM
Quote
Some composition logs from those exos wouldn't go amiss either, if you should find them convenient to collect, as I added some instrumentation on what the relative-strength numbers would have been, compared to the exo-cost points.
Ah, sorry, I don't have logs now. I'm enabling advanced logging now, should have them pretty soon.
If it's convenient; not like it's your job to give me data on Arcen's game ;)

Some reverse psychology going on here :p
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Toranth on March 28, 2013, 10:33:22 PM
Have a problem with the 6.015 cloak boosting.  It causes everything being cloaked to flicker in and out of cloak.  Standing still, moving, through wormholes or not, doesn't matter.

i've attached a save where you can see this.  Load the save, and go to the Gence system.  There's a group of Spirecraft Siege Towers there, gathered around a Cloaker Starship.  Watch, amazed, as they flick in and out of sight!  Now you see them!  Now you don't!

This happens for everything that gets cloak boosted, by any source.  This was not a problem in 6.013.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 28, 2013, 10:53:45 PM
Interesting, wasn't able to get that to happen in my tests, but so it goes.  Will test with your case when I get a chance tomorrow.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Wingflier on March 30, 2013, 08:10:37 PM
Just realized that the new resource-conversion system (which is fantastic by the way) isn't converting one maxed resource into another. In that way, it's lost a lot of the old functionality of the old system.

For example, before if I had 999,999 metal and 500,000 crystal, it would convert the excess metal into crystal, which saved the player a lot of money. Now it doesn't do that anymore. Do you think you could add that functionality again?

Thanks.

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=11032
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 30, 2013, 08:13:22 PM
Just realized that the new resource-conversion system (which is fantastic by the way) isn't converting one maxed resource into another. In that way, it's lost a lot of the old functionality of the old system.

For example, before if I had 999,999 metal and 500,000 crystal, it would convert the excess metal into crystal, which saved the player a lot of money. Now it doesn't do that anymore. Do you think you could add that functionality again?

Thanks.

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=11032
It should already be doing that but probably there's another bug in the hamsters.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Wingflier on March 30, 2013, 08:33:47 PM
I can give you a save if it would help...
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 30, 2013, 09:12:59 PM
I can give you a save if it would help...
Actually yes, in case it's some strange confluence of factors that would stubbornly refuse to conflow for my tests.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Wingflier on March 30, 2013, 10:21:19 PM
Save attached.

And while you're looking at that, could you look at another one in the same game that's causing over 100 allied minor faction units to sit on an empty planet and do nothing?

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=11033

Thank you.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Toranth on March 31, 2013, 09:14:03 AM
Since I upgraded to 6.015, I've seen some errors in the AIErrors.txt and ArcenDebugLog.txt files, mostly relating to null references.
This seems to be in the AIRouting.FindDistancesFromPlanets method.  I've attached the files so you can see for yourself.

These errors do not appear ingame, and do not appear to have any practical effect on gameplay.  Never would have noticed if I hadn't happened to check those two files for content.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Dichotomy on April 01, 2013, 05:51:52 PM
Quote
Fixed a bug where, in some cases, the AI would hack your financial information and use the money to hire assassins.
Thanks to the families of various players for letting us know.
I think updating to 6.016 just became a priority ;D
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on April 01, 2013, 05:57:11 PM
Quote
Fixed a bug where, in some cases, the AI would hack your financial information and use the money to hire assassins.
Thanks to the families of various players for letting us know.
I think updating to 6.016 just became a priority ;D
Very funny, Faulty.

Coincidentally, the AI's target priotization logic for that subroutine places high value on unauthorized edits to the release notes.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Faulty Logic on April 01, 2013, 06:04:31 PM
Quote
Very funny, Faulty.

Coincidentally, the AI's target priotization logic for that subroutine places high value on unauthorized edits to the release notes.
I would have taken it down myself around midnight. So it would only have been up for april fools day
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Cinth on April 01, 2013, 06:30:16 PM
Quote
Very funny, Faulty.

Coincidentally, the AI's target priotization logic for that subroutine places high value on unauthorized edits to the release notes.
I would have taken it down myself around midnight.

I thought it was fairly humorous myself :)
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on April 02, 2013, 02:46:59 PM
Since I upgraded to 6.015, I've seen some errors in the AIErrors.txt and ArcenDebugLog.txt files, mostly relating to null references.
This seems to be in the AIRouting.FindDistancesFromPlanets method.  I've attached the files so you can see for yourself.

These errors do not appear ingame, and do not appear to have any practical effect on gameplay.  Never would have noticed if I hadn't happened to check those two files for content.
Just took a look, and it sounds pretty bizarre that these errors would be happening all of a sudden.  Anyway, they're not really in functions that I can find the errors in question without line numbers, and I can't get line numbers from user-side logs (thanks, Unity, for not allowing release builds with proper symbols included), so I need to reproduce it locally.  Do you have any saves where any of these errors happen?

Thanks!
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Toranth on April 02, 2013, 05:01:34 PM
Since I upgraded to 6.015, I've seen some errors in the AIErrors.txt and ArcenDebugLog.txt files, mostly relating to null references.
This seems to be in the AIRouting.FindDistancesFromPlanets method.  I've attached the files so you can see for yourself.

These errors do not appear ingame, and do not appear to have any practical effect on gameplay.  Never would have noticed if I hadn't happened to check those two files for content.
Just took a look, and it sounds pretty bizarre that these errors would be happening all of a sudden.  Anyway, they're not really in functions that I can find the errors in question without line numbers, and I can't get line numbers from user-side logs (thanks, Unity, for not allowing release builds with proper symbols included), so I need to reproduce it locally.  Do you have any saves where any of these errors happen?
I have 4 saves from 15-30 minutes before an error occured, and I have 2 saves from a minute or two AFTER an error occured.
I tried to reproduce from the 'before' saves, and was unable to do so.  Probably because I didn't perform the same actions the second time around.

I've attached both sets of save files anyway, but good luck.  Sorry I don't have anything better for you.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Faulty Logic on April 02, 2013, 05:03:25 PM
Toranth: what happened to generate your avatar?

I'm thinking an ST hack gone horribly wrong, or a bug where the "all raid starships" modifier ended up applying to exos?
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on April 02, 2013, 05:06:00 PM
I'm thinking an ST hack gone horribly wrong
Iirc that's what happened.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on April 02, 2013, 05:08:27 PM
I tried to reproduce from the 'before' saves, and was unable to do so.  Probably because I didn't perform the same actions the second time around.

I've attached both sets of save files anyway, but good luck.  Sorry I don't have anything better for you.
No problem, if they're that intermittent and such it's probably not hurting much.  Most AI thread logic is just "loop everything I have, see if I want it to do something different, and then do it again", so if it messes up on one go-through it'll get it next time.  All the errors I saw in your log were the sort that would just interrupt it on that cycle and it'd retry a brief moment later.

Still want to fix them, but I don't think it's causing any major malfunctions.
Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: Toranth on April 02, 2013, 05:47:23 PM
I tried to reproduce from the 'before' saves, and was unable to do so.  Probably because I didn't perform the same actions the second time around.

I've attached both sets of save files anyway, but good luck.  Sorry I don't have anything better for you.
No problem, if they're that intermittent and such it's probably not hurting much.  Most AI thread logic is just "loop everything I have, see if I want it to do something different, and then do it again", so if it messes up on one go-through it'll get it next time.  All the errors I saw in your log were the sort that would just interrupt it on that cycle and it'd retry a brief moment later.

Still want to fix them, but I don't think it's causing any major malfunctions.
As far as I can tell, it had no impact on the game.  No errors appeared in game, and I didn't notice anything bizarre going on with the AI.  Glad to see it probably isn't important; I can go back to ignoring those files again now.




Toranth: what happened to generate your avatar?

I'm thinking an ST hack gone horribly wrong, or a bug where the "all raid starships" modifier ended up applying to exos?
Ah, memories... (twitch shiver shiver)  See, it was about this time last year, when suddenly... (http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,10011.msg96010.html#msg96010)

Title: Re: AI War Beta 6.014-6.015 "De-Faulting The Logic" Released!
Post by: keith.lamothe on April 03, 2013, 12:16:09 PM
New one (http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,12779.0.html) :)