AI War Beta 6.012 "Darkened Sky, Altered Starship" Released!

[keith.lamothe]

(Crossposted from this blog post)

This one revamps the Dark Spire minor faction and does a balance overhaul on Starships, notably adding a long-requested new important capturable structure: The Advanced Starship Constructor.

For the Dark Spire:they should still be just as influential upon the galaxy once truly unleashed (in fact, more influential due to improved "what do I do now?" logic), but now they (probably) won't melt your CPU in the process.  Previously you could wind up with 50k+ of the things if you really cranked up one of the vengeance generators, but now it's much better about concentrating spawns into a smaller number of more powerful units as the overall Dark Spire population increases.

For the Starships: the main combat and combat-support starships have had their caps halved, their cap-DPS reduced significantly (so individual DPS is the same or a bit higher), their metal/crystal/energy costs halved, and their knowledge costs slightly-more-than-halved.  The result is a better deal but it's much less likely that you'll be able to get all the core firepower you need from just starships.  This helps better emphasize the role of starships as a category: supplementary to fleet ships, and capable of some important independent operations, but not something that contests with the fleet ships category for the role of damage-dealing.

In addition, there's now a starship equivalent of the Advanced Factory so you can produce mkIV versions of many starship types (if you have the corresponding mkIII type unlocked).  To top it off, Fabricators for the mkV versions of those starship types are now also on the list of possible experimental-starship fabs.

The release also has a few other changes, notably an increase to starting metal/crystal stockpiles.  The difference is only a matter of minutes even at just-the-homeworld resource harvesting levels, but it does help the very early game drag less.

Enjoy!

This is a standard update that you can download through the  in-game updater itself, if you already have 4.000 or later. When you launch the game, you'll see the notice of the update having been found if you're connected to the Internet at the time.  If you don't have 4.000 or later, you can download that here.

[TechSY730]

Awesome!

The only problem with morning releases though is of course I cannot update and test at work.



Also, just to copy over a concern from the previous post so it doesn't get lost.

Starship Disassembler Guardians are now potentially much more powerful than before.  Increase their exo costs?

[Diazo]

Work?

Work is evil. EVIL! (Except Arcen's work, that gets us this  )

But yes, going to see what this does to the exo-wave first thing when I get home.

It will make it easier but that's not going to make it an easy fight.....

D.

[Lancefighter]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
HOW COULD YOU

MY GLORIOUS STARSHIPS

[ZaneWolfe]

I haven't had a chance to test these new changes, but just from going over the numbers there are several things that stand out as major issues to me. While I enjoy the idea of Mark IV starships, since my early game relies on them rather exclusively, I feel that the damage nerf was rather extreme in some cases. I could see a nerf of 20%-25% maybe 30%, but some of them got hit with a 40% or more loss in their DPS, which combined with their smaller cap is going to make using them even harder than before. Yes I know that starships only is not the design point, but it is a valid strategy for early game and rather effective as well. I can live with the smaller cap. I can even understand a slight DPS hit for reducing the K costs, but some of them didn't take a small hit, they were beaten unconscious. My one example is below

Spire Starship. This thing has a cap of one. As such, it should be suitably badass. Its only weapon is a single target/straight line beam of death. As is well known, the photon lance is a finicky weapon. It can deal tons of damage a LOT of damage, (Riot might file a copyright claim) or it might miss and not do much of anything. The counter point for the fact it rarely deals its full damage was always the fact that it dealt A LOT OF IT. Now you have cut the DPS almost in half, while its still got that finicky mechanic of the photon lance. That's... harsh.

Only other major complaint in this patch, again just from reading it over, is the bump up in K cost of the Corvette and the fact that its considered a 'fleet ship' balance wise. IMHO, either the corvette is a starship, and should be balanced like a bonus starship (IE, stronger overall compared to other starships) or it should be a fleetship and get a cap as such. (though perhaps a low cap, as similar spire tech gets) For the K cost, it is already really expensive to get. You have to unlock it, AND the need tech for its mods. Granted that tech gives you things you might have unlocked anyway, but even if you cut the cost of the mods in half you're still doubling the cost of the corvette. Maybe you could reduce the cost of the mods. (No, that would be crazy op) Why not lower the cost of the corvette or give it or the mods a buff to compensate?

(Cant post more, at work and late.)

[keith.lamothe]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
HOW COULD YOU

MY GLORIOUS STARSHIPS

And here I was thinking you'd be delighted to see mkIV and mkV starships like you'd been asking for for so long

[Diazo]

@Zanewolfe: I agree this is a nerf to starships from a pure stats point. But that 1500 K cost for mark II? For a single planet of knowledge you can now unlock both Mk I and II of the Zenith and Spire starships.

I am going to be all over that because even in my low-aip games, I can find the knowledge to do that. Before I could not do that unless I was going starship only as even the Mk II starship costs would break the bank on that front.

As for the spire corvette, I looked at the stats, and this thing is scary. The Corvette's base weapon at 300k*Mk DPS? Other bonus fleet ships are in the 130k*Mk DPS range. Add in the modules and shields and the Corvette is looking a little OP from the numbers on paper.

Yes, that is a beam weapon so time on target is a problem and the low caps will limit placement as they can't be in as many places as once now, but still, that unit looks exciting (to me on paper anyway).

3 hours until I get home from work, I can't wait.....

D.

[Lancefighter]

You half the dps of my favorite starships, which werent even particularly high dps to begin with, you gut the caps of everything, making them more important to micro, and then you force me to find these silly mk4 starship fabricators?

I wont be happy until you give us warbird and beam starships in compensation!
(mostly though, it really doesnt look that bad, for the most part starships were kinda strong feeling)

If we are trying to make the starships into fleet support starships, can we at least give them more fleet support abilities? Armor boosting on the zenith one maybe? atm the flagship munitions boost seems kinda small too. Maybe the spire ones can get giant shield modules or something?

[Faulty Logic]

You half the dps of my favorite starships, which werent even particularly high dps to begin with, you gut the caps of everything, making them more important to micro, and then you force me to find these silly mk4 starship fabricators?

But you can buy mkII starships instantly, and have enough energy to power them with your first conquest. They are also easier to preserve with micro.

[keith.lamothe]

Spire Starship (...) Now you have cut the DPS almost in half, while its still got that finicky mechanic of the photon lance. That's... harsh.

You're comparing it to 6.011, where the Spire Starship was widely (as far as I could see) considered pretty overpowered.  It had higher base-dps than the standard bomber bonus-dps.

In 6.010 the mkI Spire Starship's cap-dps was 240k and unlocking it cost 1000/2500/4000 (with no mkIV).

In 6.012 the mkI Spire Starship's cap-dps is 180k, it fires every 3 seconds instead of every 10 (making misses due to lance-finickyness less of a problem, though I grant the cap reduction counterbalances that in some cases) and unlocking it costs 500/1000/2500 (with mkIV available if you have an ASC).

At mkI:
In 6.010 you spent 1000 K for 240k dps, or about 240 DPS per K
In 6.012 you spend 500K for 180k dps, or about 360 DPS per K (50% better deal)

At mkII:
In 6.010 you spent a total of 3500 K for a total of 720k dps, or about 206 DPS per K
In 6.012 you spend 1500K for 540k dps, or about 360 DPS per K (~75% better deal)

At mkIII:
In 6.010 you spent a total of 7500 K for a total of 1440k dps, or about 192 DPS per K
In 6.012 you spend 4000K for 1080k dps, or about 270 DPS per K (~40% better deal)
In 6.012 with an ASC you spend 4000K for 1800k dps, or about 450 DPS per K (~134% better deal)


Yes, the total dps is lower (except in the last case), but you are getting a _substantially_ better return on your knowledge than before.

You mentioned that your early game relies on starships.  That's fine, and that should still work.  If you fill your (now reduced) starship caps and need more, just unlock more.  The knowledge costs are quite reasonable   Or are you unlocking mkIII of flagship, zenith, spire, bomber, AND siege (maybe leech and raid for good measure, not to mention riots which weren't really changed) in that early game and still not being able to build enough for your purposes?  Later in the game you can get an ASC and really rake in some extra power with the mkIV versions.

Of course, end-game you won't (probably) be able to take out the AI HW in one or two strikes with an only-starships-blob.  But you're not supposed to be able to do that.  Though I suspect that if you took in mkI/II/III/IV of all combat starships, plus mkI of all your fleet ships and mkII of all your ARS-unlocked fleet ships (since II is free for those), you could do it in a lot of cases.  Without having spent any K on fleet ships.

Only other major complaint in this patch, again just from reading it over, is the bump up in K cost of the Corvette and the fact that its considered a 'fleet ship' balance wise. IMHO, either the corvette is a starship, and should be balanced like a bonus starship (IE, stronger overall compared to other starships) or it should be a fleetship and get a cap as such. (though perhaps a low cap, as similar spire tech gets)

If it's balanced a starship nowadays, it has to stop being a bonus ship because otherwise drawing it as a bonus type would be a raw deal: you'd be getting substantially lower cap-DPS than a fleet ship type.  It'd have lower K-costs for upgrades, sure, but that's not the role of bonus types.

But a certain person in this room spent some time _jumping up and down_ for bonus starships to get added, so it's staying a bonus starship

For the K cost, it is already really expensive to get. You have to unlock it, AND the need tech for its mods.

That's a fair point that I neglected; I can reduce the corvette's knowledge cost by maybe 2000 total to compensate for the module techs (though you do get other stuff for those module techs).

[keith.lamothe]

You half the dps of my favorite starships, which werent even particularly high dps to begin with, you gut the caps of everything, making them more important to micro, and then you force me to find these silly mk4 starship fabricators?

Yes.  Bwahahahaha!

I wont be happy until you give us warbird and beam starships in compensation!

Reminds me of AI diplomacy in Alpha Centauri.  Perhaps you'll invoke UN sanctions?

(mostly though, it really doesnt look that bad, for the most part starships were kinda strong feeling)

Yea.  They should still be pretty strong now too, you just can't sink as much K into them as you used to, so past a certain point you have to spend it somewhere else (i.e. those annoying little fleet ships you don't like to deal with)

If we are trying to make the starships into fleet support starships, can we at least give them more fleet support abilities? Armor boosting on the zenith one maybe? atm the flagship munitions boost seems kinda small too. Maybe the spire ones can get giant shield modules or something?

Armor boosting for the zenith would be fine.  I could give the spire a ff but then you wouldn't be able to protect it with external ffs.  In theory it could be given a module as you say but I don't want to go modular with the basic starship types.  The spire is supposed to be special because of its weapon type, at this point, though perhaps something else special would be good.

[TechSY730]

I guess the question is what people want out of starships compared to fleet ships. Would you rather have extreme cap durability compared to fleet ships, or only somewhat better cap durability? How much cap DPS are you willing to pay for that durability?

And no, something like extremely high cap durability and having a cap DPS only a little bit below fleet ship cap DPS won't fly as that would be unbalanced, unless costs (knowledge, metal, and crystal) were jacked accordingly


This update pushed the starship balance to higher cap durability in return for somewhat lesser DPS.


Of course, there is also the issue of "how much is extreme?" "how much is a little bit?" and "how much is somewhat?" in real number and/or ratio terms.

[TechSY730]

If we are trying to make the starships into fleet support starships, can we at least give them more fleet support abilities? Armor boosting on the zenith one maybe?[...]

Armor boosting for the zenith would be fine.

Is the Zenith starship and Fortress parallel still be maintained? If so, why not repair beams like fortresses have?
A good answer for why not would be that it would be OP and cheapen the Z medical frigates. Not sure if that answer would be true, but that is one concern.



BTW, one thing holding back munitions and armor boosting are the low caps on the multipliers things can get for them, especially for starships and turrets.

[Lancefighter]

Well, I was kinda just thinking it would have a forced shield module more than anything else. I am not sure how that would work, but I dont really think it would be much of an option, just when the ship is built it builds its own forcefield module and thats it. Honestly, not that big a deal if that cant happen. I'm just trying to think of something that the spire starship can do to actually be a 'support' ship.

the zenith fort inherits the repair beams from the standard fortress, not from the zenith

Which reminds me, starships still cant get armor boosted or munitions boosted beyond 1.4x

[Faulty Logic]

Let's get a couple weeks of hands-on experience with the new starships before we do anything major (reversion or further buffing).