AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!

[chemical_art]

That looks great Keith 

[Wingflier]

Looks great Keith!

Only a few comments:

Heavy Bomber Starships have the same Cap Health as the Zenith, but no bonuses, and they can't hit the majority of ships in the game...literally.  Their speed is nice, but is fairly useless in a fleet, and for raiding, Raid Starships are much more...ideal to say the least. 

Before, Heavy Bomber Starships were good against Guardians, but now that most Guardians have the "Medium" Hull Type, Fighters counter them very well, and are astronomically cheaper.  Which essentially leaves buildings and shields, which the Bomber Starship only does so-so damage against.  In other words, I think its DPS needs to be as high, or even higher than the Spire Starship's to compensate for its poor range and severe lack of targets it can hit.

At least, I won't be building them until that happens. 

In addition, I don't think the 40% DPS nerf on the Siege Starship is warranted.  If they moved at normal Starship speeds then that would be fair, but considering they are the slowest unit in the game, I don't think their range or damage should be nerfed to compensate for their new durability.  Personally I'd rather you just up their speed than keep their damage, but it's your choice.

[TechSY730]

A slight nerf to regular damage and a decent nerf to engine damage for the plasma seiges may be OK, if they were given a slight speed boost in return. Nothing much, and it should still be slower than a missile frigate, but maybe not by much. (10831: I find it hard to get any realistic use out of Plasma Siege Starships because they move so slowly)
For example, if the missile frigate is of speed 46 (not sure if it is, but that is not important, the relative difference is), then the PSS should have a speed of 42-44.


For bomber starship, I agree with Wingflier. Trade some of its speed for more DPS, and that would make them much more useful.

[TechSY730]

So, does this mean the AI is now going to get only half as many starships in waves? If so, will that be rounded down, up, or "closest" (aka. traditional rounding). Does this mean that it is possible for a wave to have no starships (especially those first few waves)?

[chemical_art]

Given I haven't used Bomber or Siege starships in ages, I didn't know if those changes were odd 


They do seem step though, given just how niche they are. If sieges had a speed boost or more dps, and the bombers had a bit of a dps boost (even in exchange for less speed...they aren't meant to be raider starships) I think that would help.

[Faulty Logic]

It looks like starships will remain a support role, with some interesting possibilities for AIFloor games. This is good.

The bomber starship should regain its ability to hit fleetships, a bonus vs medium hulls, or a significant dps buff.
The seige starship should either regain its range (especially now that guardposts have radar dampening) or the ability to hit like a train, or get a speed boost. I would prefer the "hit like a train" option.

[chemical_art]

I would prefer the "hit like a train" option.

Yes, then again, I always like this option for player tools.

[TechSY730]

Sorry if we seem ungrateful sometimes, but (most) of us just want this game to be the best it can be, and that is why we point out our balance concerns. It isn't that we like to whine and complain (as fun as that can be sometimes ), but we (or at least most of us) genuinely want to help and contribute constructively.

Thanks for "slogging" through all of these numbers based off our sometimes vague-ish, frequent feedback.

[Diazo]

Hmmm.

On paper, my only worry is that a 40% DPS hit on the plasma siege is too much. They don't really have the range to be an artillery piece as intended as their range is currently the same as a missile frigate.

Yes, that is an above average range, but it's not long range by my standards.

Maybe give them a small range boost (3000?) so they work as artillery pieces? With the DPS nerf, if their are few enough AI ships left in the system that the plasma siege can take their target down without dying, you've conquered the system anyway so I'm not worried about this pushing the siege up into OP territory.

Everything else looks okay? This change is big enough however that we really need to play with the new ships.

Dropping the ship cap to 1 is going to have unexpected ripples I expect, but until we can play with them we are not going to find them.

D.

[TechSY730]

I'm fine with the PSS's range actually. Maybe it could stand to be slightly bigger than a missile frigate's, but I wouldn't fight hard for it.

I'd prefer a "hit like a truck" (not train ) combined with a slight speed boost. The cap DPS can still remain a bit lower than it is now in 6.011, but not 40% lower.

Then again, 40% lower DPS with a much higher range (closer to that of Z bombards) combined with a slight speed boost could work too. As mentioned, which set of compromises and gains "feel" best is really hard to theorize based off of numbers alone.

EDIT: If the "Bomber starships can target fleet ships again" route is chosen, can the Bomber starships get the "prefer large targets" flag like the Plasma Siege does?
For the record, I am against giving them the ability to target small stuff again (I would rather see the -speed +DPS option instead), but just as a suggestion if it does get chosen.

[Faulty Logic]

"hit like a truck" (not train )

I'm aware of the expression. Trains are bigger than trucks, my implication being that they hit really, really hard rather than just really hard.

[TechSY730]

"hit like a truck" (not train )

I'm aware of the expression. Trains are bigger than trucks, my implication being that they hit really, really hard rather than just really hard.

Sorry, miscommunication. I wasn't actually trying to correct you.

I think both trunk and train are both valid last words of that expression. The difference is that of magnitude. ("Really, really hard" vs "really, really, really hard", respectively).

What I was saying is that I would like a power magnitude that would align with the phrase "hit like a truck" would imply, but I think that giving it a power magnitude that would align with the phrase "hit like a train" would be going too far.

[Faulty Logic]

Sorry, miscommunication. I wasn't actually trying to correct you.

Yeah, and I wasn't trying to sound annoyed. Tone-loss strikes again! 

What I was saying is that I would like a power magnitude that would align with the phrase "hit like a truck" would imply, but I think that giving it a power magnitude that would align with the phrase "hit like a train" would be going too far.

Hmm, I stand by hitting like a train. These are supposed to be the glass cannon of the fleet. They have plenty of "glass": fiddly, hugely slow, medium range only, and fragile, but not much "cannon."

[keith.lamothe]

Ok, I'll ratchet the heavy-bomber and siege dps up a bit from those numbers, then, and maybe make the siege not quite so slow.

Thanks for the feedback

[TechSY730]

Just to gather feedback, would people feel that reducing bomber starship speed would be a buff or a nerf in usability?