AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!

[chemical_art]

Maybe something is wrong with eyes, but rarely cannot I send a cap of my highest mark bombers to knock out the guardposts in non-ai worlds. I've gone whole games without building a single starship even against eyes and aside from sending in bombers piecemail instead of wholesale I didn't notice that much a difference. Sure, it was a little harder, but for me saving K at the cost 30 minutes of work is worth it. And in the case of AI eyes, their reserves ensure enough of a buffer I can bee-line to a guard post.

[Wingflier]

I don't think I understand what you're saying.

The new patch doesn't seem to be nerfing Starships from what I can tell.  It's actually giving you access to another Tier.  Is that a bad thing?

Considering the only starships I used where the new zenith and spire starships, and now they in effect cost a lot more for lower marks and the same for higher marks, and the IV's now require an irreplacable building, they have certainly been nerfed.

The other starships have had a side upgrade, since they do have access to a IV building that cannot be replacabled, but now getting the to the III costs another 2k research.

Wait, I don't see anything about the costs staying the same in the changelog.  I would assume that MKI's would cost less than the current MKII's, otherwise the new changes wouldn't make much sense.

Edit:  Though I agree working towards making the other Starships on par with these two seems like a good design goal.

For example:

Parasite MK2 Starship: 72000 DPS, 8 million health

Zenith MK2 Starship: 100000 DPS, 36 million health

Granted, the Parasite Starship does reclamation damage, but does it really need to be that weak?  Their costs are nearly identical.  Not to mention that the Zenith Starship has 4x multipliers against 4 different hulls, Radar Dampening, and over 3x as much armor.  The same can basically be said for the other Starship equivalents.  I think the Zenith and Spire are in a good place now, the others should be looked at.

Edit2:  Flagship MK3 with 15m health...

[chemical_art]

Wait, I don't see anything about the costs staying the same in the changelog.  I would assume that MKI's would cost less than the current MKII's, otherwise the new changes wouldn't make much sense.

Knowledge costs shifted.

Here is how total K costs break down with the current patch and the new one

    Current / Changes:
I:   NA / 500
II: 1500 / 3000
III: 4500 / 8500
IV: 8500 / 8500 ***

*** Currently, you need not defend a unique structure, the new one you do, and in addition this structure is a different one than the fleetship meaning if you want IV's in both you have to pick both.


So K cost wise, the new changes make the starships cost sharply more  K up and until the MK IV are unlocked, in which they are equal. BUT, even then, you are only given access for a limited time until you lose them since the the constructor is irreplaceable. The only removed downside you don't get I's. Since I don't hear reports here of people losing early game that wouldn't also cause a defeat late game sans 9+, I consider this to be a nerf overall.

[Diazo]

Erm, perhaps people should note what AIP they are talking about?

Going back to my previous post about balance points, I'm thinking the AIP balance needs to be added also.

By that I mean it looks like low AIP favors starships and high AIP favors fleet ships.

That goes back to the fact that the fewer AI ships there are, the more useful the starships survivability is in making them effective.

As for the changes, it is at the point I need to play with them. The suggested changes look like they are in-line with everything else balance-wise, at least roughly, so I'm satisfied until I can get play time with them.

D.

[TechSY730]

I guess what this whole experiment has shown is that the starship balance formula still needs a bit of tweaking, and probably should be kept consistent among the starship types.

[keith.lamothe]

** Also note that starship-only games will still generally not be viable in harder scenarios because the resource costs are so high.  These aren't intended to be able to replace fleet ships in all roles.

Well, Keith hit the nail on the head for me for why I don't use starships [again].

If you won't use them unless they can totally replace fleet ships even on hard scenarios, then yea, you should probably scrap your starting starship constructor at the beginning of each game and never build another

If I made it so that you could use starships and totally ignore fleet ships and still have normal chances of beating a hard scenario... well, it would be an unacceptable balance for a number of specific people I can think of.  Chris being one of them.  No way to please everyone here.

It is a shame that even a dev admits they are inheriently inferior

Historical data indicates that your reading comprehension level is substantially higher than this statement indicates


Anyway, a few things:
- Yes, availability of mkIV starships will be temporary if you lose the ASC.  Is that any different from mkIV fleet ships and the AdvFact?
- Yes, there were some knowledge cost changes, but specifically to bring the now-with-mkIV-availability starships into line with the fleet ships.  I guess I could look at targeting a lower baseline K cost for getting to mkIV starships than fleet ships, but I didn't want to make it too nice.


Perhaps it's better to look at it this way: starships as a category should not overshadow fleet ships as a category.  Not the way that FS capital ships overshadow everything (which is basically intended in FS's case).  I could reorient the starship balance targets such that a cap of starships isn't meant to stack up to a cap of fleet ships, and make the starship K, cap-e, and cap-m+c costs accordingly lower.  But the individual starships could still be very strong.


In the end, I'm sorry this isn't doing it for you, chemical_art, I'd hoped adding in the IV/V stuff would make the starships more interesting to you without breaking other balance goals.  But maybe we'll figure out something in the end

[chemical_art]

I could reorient the starship balance targets such that a cap of starships isn't meant to stack up to a cap of fleet ships, and make the starship K, cap-e, and cap-m+c costs accordingly lower.  But the individual starships could still be very strong.

That could work.

I have no problem if starships are not meant to overshadow fleetships. But if that is the case, they shouldn't have M + C costs and K costs balanced as if they are meant to be equal. If one inheriently overshadows the others during the hardest stage of the game, the shadowed one should not cost the same, Fleetship only games are very possible, starship only games are not, I would consider that overshadowing.

[Eternaly_Lost]

Anyway, a few things:
- Yes, availability of mkIV starships will be temporary if you lose the ASC.  Is that any different from mkIV fleet ships and the AdvFact?

Yes it is, you can build MkIV Enclaves(at a great cost) to build MkIV fleetships. Meaning if you lose your AdvFactory, unless you can't get that much K due to how much is left in the whole game, you are not completely removed from MKIV fleetships.

Unless we get a MKIV Enclave or something else that we can build that can build MKIV starships (At a cost more or less similar to the MKIV Enclaves) then Fleetship will win on that end.

- Yes, there were some knowledge cost changes, but specifically to bring the now-with-mkIV-availability starships into line with the fleet ships.  I guess I could look at targeting a lower baseline K cost for getting to mkIV starships than fleet ships, but I didn't want to make it too nice.

Unless there is a way to basically have a rebuildable Advanced Starship Constructor, you can't say that they should have similar K costs. Because one of them you can spend more K to get it back, well the other you can't spend more K to get it back. For that alone, I think it might be worth to lower the K costs, unless you are planning on adding a unit to allow the rebuilding it.

Like a mobile Starship constructor? Now that would be interesting.

So, in my mind, but I have to play it to be certain. You either need to buff the Starships to basically make the 1-3 worth that of the 1-4 if you spend the same K, and make the IV a true icing on the cake sort of deal. Or reduce the K costs to reflect that you can't truely replace the Advanced Starship Constructor, like you can an Advanced Factory.

Perhaps it's better to look at it this way: starships as a category should not overshadow fleet ships as a category.  Not the way that FS capital ships overshadow everything (which is basically intended in FS's case).  I could reorient the starship balance targets such that a cap of starships isn't meant to stack up to a cap of fleet ships, and make the starship K, cap-e, and cap-m+c costs accordingly lower.  But the individual starships could still be very strong.

Personally, I have always seen it as this.

Fleetships, weak little things that work in swarms.

Starships, powerful, but small groups of units that are roughly equal to Fleetships of the same Knowledge cost and types.

Fallen Spire Fleet. Once the ball gets rolling, it a rockslide coming down the mountain. With the AI being a flood that trying to reach the top before the rockslide makes it to the bottom. Or maybe the other way around works better. But in either case, the small villages of fleetship with their cars (Starships) halfway up the moutain just get completely mashed around in the crossfire.

[keith.lamothe]

Unless there is a way to basically have a rebuildable Advanced Starship Constructor, you can't say that they should have similar K costs.

I don't see the mkIV enclave's mkIV production capability as having nearly that substantial an impact on things, because unlocking the mkIV takes a _ton_ of knowledge.  That's a _major_ strategic choice, with heavy tradeoffs.

Though in your specific case, I think you take enough planets that the knowledge costs don't really faze you.

[Eternaly_Lost]

Unless there is a way to basically have a rebuildable Advanced Starship Constructor, you can't say that they should have similar K costs.

I don't see the mkIV enclave's mkIV production capability as having nearly that substantial an impact on things, because unlocking the mkIV takes a _ton_ of knowledge.  That's a _major_ strategic choice, with heavy tradeoffs.

Though in your specific case, I think you take enough planets that the knowledge costs don't really faze you.

Given I normally end the game with around 80 planets or so, more then likely yes.

[Wingflier]

So K cost wise, the new changes make the starships cost sharply more  K up and until the MK IV are unlocked, in which they are equal. BUT, even then, you are only given access for a limited time until you lose them since the the constructor is irreplaceable. The only removed downside you don't get I's. Since I don't hear reports here of people losing early game that wouldn't also cause a defeat late game sans 9+, I consider this to be a nerf overall.

Perhaps it is a nerf now, but if all the Starships were brought up to the level of the current Zenith and Spire Starships, this entire process of changes will have been an overall buff to Starships.

In general, yes, you're going to have to choose between MKIV Starships or MKIV Fleetships, but I don't see that as a BAD thing at all.

And yes, I'm aware that buffing Starships opens up the abuse from players who want to sit on their Homeworld in difficulty 10 for 2 hours and build a cap of Starships, then roam around the galaxy, accruing as little AIP as possible until they finally win; but let's be honest, if someone wants to play the game like this, then I say let them.  They're clearly playing the game in a way it isn't meant to be played, and I don't see why we should take their complaints seriously.  There's tons of ways to play AI War that aren't ideal.  I could play 10 planets, then complain about the balance, but that would be a little ridiculous.

I think the balance of the Zenith/Spire Starships is in a good place, and all the other Starships should be tweaked to meet them.  If someone wants to spend hours on Facebook abusing this mechanic, that's their choice.

[TechSY730]

As starships are supposed to be substantially more resource intensive, it seems fair that the knowledge cost to get them to Mk. III should be less than the cost to get a fleetship to Mk. III.


TBH, I am still have not decided whether the cap of 4 or a cap of 2 "feels" better for starships.


If we do go for a cap of 2 for all of the combat starship types, then I guess the special treatment of the Zenith and Spire starship "wave costs" by the AI should be removed, and just make it such that the AI only gets half as many starships (rounded down!) if it chooses one of the now cap 2 starships.

In any case (whether we stick to the current some 2 some 4, make them all 4 again, or make them all 2), I think yet another balance pass on the starships is in order, this time with adjustments on the balance target compared to fleet ships based on what we have learned from this experiment (what we have learned...I'm still not sure, but it is something...)

[Diazo]

Hello you Core Shield Generators.....

Damn you for making me actually take planets! 

As mentioned, I feel CSGs are intended to be on in a "fair" game, so I'm not too concerned about being able to roam around with a starship fleet without taking any systems as you are not "playing the game as intended" at this point. (My opinion only here.)

As for the cap, the combat starships certainly should be a cap of 2 I think. That enhances the survival aspect of the starships that you are paying K for.

On the support ships, such as the flagship or the leech, I'm not sure. Keeping those at a higher cap so they are easier to build to mix in with your fleet has advantages, at the disadvantage of not being as sturdy on a per-ship basis.

At this point, I'm really waiting to get my hands on them to try them out before I comment too much, they look decent on paper at this point.

D.

[Wingflier]

I think two is a good number, even for the Parasites, Siege, and Flagship Starships.  With a full battalion that's 8, which seems perfect, not to mention they are much harder to kill in the process.

[keith.lamothe]

Ok, I think I'm going to try changing the balance target on the combat starships (specifically, the flagship, zenith, spire, bomber, siege, and leech; leaving out the raid as it has a separate role) to be:

Advantages relative to fleet ships:
- 4000K instead of 8500K to research up to mkIII (and thus get IVs through the ASC)
- Cap health is still higher (by 30% to 100% or so, depending on ship) than fleet ship cap health
- Concentration into small caps gives extra tactical options due to individual durability, immunity to various tomfoolery (ion cannons, etc), and so on

Disadvantages relative to fleet ships:
- Cap DPS is lower (by around 50%, depending on ship) than fleet ship cap DPS
- Relatively high metal, crystal, and energy costs


So, here's the current numbers (as of what's in for 6.012 thus far) for those starship types and some reference fleet ship types:

Type	Cap	CapHealth	CapBaseDPS	CapBonusDPS	CapMC	CapE	KnowledgeToGetIIIAndIV
Flagship	4	20000000	50000	200000	400000	40000	8500
Zenith Starship	2	36000000	50000	200000	200000	20000	8500
Spire Starship	2	24000000	300000	300000	200000	20000	8500
Heavy Bomber Starship	4	28000000	140000	140000	400000	40000	8500
Plasma Siege Starship	4	20000000	100000	100000	400000	40000	8500
Leech Starship	4	16000000	72000	72000	400000	40000	8500
Fighter	196	15915200	49000	294000	40000	10000	8500
Bomber	196	15092000	39200	235200	160000	20000	8500
Missile Frigate	196	15092000	47040	282240	120000	40000	8500

And here's what I'm currently thinking of changing it to:

Type	Cap	CapHealth	CapBaseDPS	CapBonusDPS	CapMC	CapE	KnowledgeToGetIIIAndIV
Flagship	2	20000000	30000	120000	200000	20000	4000
Zenith Starship	1	36000000	40000	160000	200000	20000	4000
Spire Starship	1	24000000	180000	180000	200000	20000	4000
Heavy Bomber Starship	2	36000000	90000	90000	200000	20000	4000
Plasma Siege Starship	2	20000000	60000	60000	200000	20000	4000
Leech Starship	2	20000000	40000	40000	200000	20000	4000
Fighter	196	15915200	49000	294000	40000	10000	8500
Bomber	196	15092000	39200	235200	160000	20000	8500
Missile Frigate	196	15092000	47040	282240	120000	40000	8500

I didn't reduce the zenith/spire m/c/e costs further since it was an oversight that I hadn't maintained them in the changes going into 6.011.

I would need to buff the flagship's "how much ship-area can I boost" to compensate for the cap change, too, but I think that's the only extra change necessary on the human-usage side.  AI-side I need to make sure these have appropriate exo costs and consideration in waves.

Brief notes on each starship type in this, since I've seen a number of complaints about some being worse than others and wanted to clarify the reason for why some numbers are lower than others:

Flagship - supposed to have relatively low durability and medium offense, since the munitions boost ability is quite useful.

Zenith - supposed to have the highest durability and "normal" (i.e. non-photon-lance) dps, since it doesn't really do anything else.  Cap of 1 to further emphasize its heavy-combatant role.

Spire - supposed to have the highest DPS because the lance requires favorable conditions to get the listed value; middling durability as it's not supposed to be as much of a fly-right-in-their-face ship as the zenith one.  Cap of 1 to further emphasize its heavy-combatant role.

Heavy Bomber - supposed to have the highest durability because it's very in-your-face, and has the highest "normal" non-bonus dps to hit whatever it does hit pretty hard (the zenith beats it on bonus targets, but the zenith's bonus types don't include hardened targets)

Siege - supposed to have relatively low durability because it's basically an artillery piece, and the single-target dps is on the low end due to the fairly substantial amount of AOE it gets

Leech - supposed to have relatively low durability because it's a "support" unit, and its dps is low because reclamation damage is a very useful tool (since the nanite-hopping was added a while ago, anyway)


Anyway, the overall effect would be to make starships a better deal overall (K cost is getting more than halved, m/c/e is getting halved, health is actually going up in some cases, and dps is getting reduced by less than 50%), but these would basically be "half caps" and the total ceiling on their power would be much lower so while you could "buy more starship" for a pretty good deal there just isn't enough "on the market" to directly compete with fleet ships for the bulk of your firepower needs.

Thoughts?