AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!

[keith.lamothe]

You mean crank it up to V? =p

Haha.

The other thing is that there's already a mkV riot, we just call it the black widow golem.

[Winge]

Liking the looks of the Advanced SS Constructor.  I'll be very interested in checking it out next game.  May even do a primarily Starship Game.

You mean crank it up to V? =p

Haha.

The other thing is that there's already a mkV riot, we just call it the black widow golem.

What then would you call a Mark V Raid SS?  I call it:  >D

[keith.lamothe]

What then would you call a Mark V Raid SS?  I call it:  >D

You don't call it, it calls you.

[LaughingThesaurus]

You call it a forcefield immune hunter/killer.

Also, "Haha." as Day9 says is very, very well controlled laughter. Exactly two "ha"s, then we get serious. I mean please. Game development is no joke.

[Hearteater]

It's all fun and games until the AI sends them your way.

[LaughingThesaurus]

Maybe "Haha." should be one of the AI's taunts. Just a deadpan robotic two-ha laugh.

[chemical_art]

** Also note that starship-only games will still generally not be viable in harder scenarios because the resource costs are so high.  These aren't intended to be able to replace fleet ships in all roles.

Well, Keith hit the nail on the head for me for why I don't use starships [again].


It is a shame that even a dev admits they are inheriently inferior, because in essence, higher difficulty is the culling of lesser strategies. For example, almost any offensive strategy works for ai 1, but not for ai 7, and lesser still for ai 9.

Oh well.

Needless to say, I yawn at these changes. It assumes fleetships are balanced the same as starships, and yet the more costly unit is inferior. Oddly enough, fleetships with similar low caps don't feel as gimped.

[onyhow]

...isn't normally you're supposed to use mixed fleet and not just starships alone?

[chemical_art]

...isn't normally you're supposed to use mixed fleet and not just starships alone?

That's the assumption I dispute, I guess.

You can do fleetship only games just fine. Even more efficiently, I guess, in many situations. It comes with the advantages of needing to defend only one constructor, in addition to fleetships being cheaper in general.

You can do mixed fleet fine, sometimes, but due to the nature of both fleetships and starships needing III units if you invest in III's in both you have to defend not one but two generators, which means you are already splitting your defenses.

But you cannot use starship only games.


....


So, why try to divide your defenses to get two constructors, when it is much easier to defend only one? The patch notes already make it clear you can't get both.

For me, in essence compared to two patches ago, it doesn't make starships any more enticing. It makes the false assumption for me that they are equal. As per above, they aren't. The additional burden of increased K for III's and needing to defend another irreplacable structure hardly makes them any more enticing then from fleetships late game ,yet the game can be won with fleetships only, but not starships only, so why bother and not just cut out the middleman? AI Wars is not a game that you can somehow lose early game but win late game. The game is built around late game strategies.

If you are playing high difficulty, you hardly care about strong early game units, since AI Wars is built that the difficulty increases as the game progresses. So ANY unit that is strong early game, but is not late game, is from a game winning perspective dead weight. For me, starships fall under this category, and these changes hardly change it since you still have to risk an irreplaceable structure. Maybe if they didn't need this they would have niche for them to be better then fleetships.

[Wingflier]

I disagree with you Chemical_Art.  The recent changes to the Zenith and Spire Starships has made them a pinnacle of what a Starship needs to be in this game.  Sure, they are damn expensive, but they are also powerful, and tough as nails.  They'll last through scenarios that whole squadrons of fleetships couldn't even dream of, and they're immune to TONS of things in the process which makes that possible.  I disagree with you that they're somehow less useful lategame than Fleetships.  If you've ever faced an Eye on an AI Homeworld, then you KNOW why you can't bring your whole fleet to battle that.  And if you only get to choose a select few ships to bring to a dreaded AI Homeworld, why not choose from the most powerful ships in the game, for their number?

If there's any complaint I have about Starships now it's simply that the recent buffs to the Zenith and Spire Starships have made all the other ones pale in comparison.  Flagships seem pitiful in comparison, and Parasite Starships are extremely fragile, while Dreadnaughts are much too slow for any dedicated raiding mission (such as silencing an Eye). 

In fact, if I had to choose, I would give the Siege Starships the Zenith Siege Engine treatment.  They can't fire while moving, but in return they don't lag behind your entire fleet, making them impractical for most things except fleetballing and defense.  Siege Starships really don't need to fire while moving anyway, and it fits their theme.

But the point is:  Yes, it's true, for pure cost efficiency, Fleetships still win hands down.  However, that's cost efficiency with an awful lot of assumptions, not the least of which that you can bring your entire fleet into the battle, or replace them quickly enough during a heavy engagement (that Starships may have survived and escaped); and in reality it doesn't always work out that way.

[chemical_art]

@Winglfier

This current patch is the pinnacle of perfect for starships.

These new ones, where they are put down a mark, make them just the same in overall impact.

[Wingflier]

I don't think I understand what you're saying.

The new patch doesn't seem to be nerfing Starships from what I can tell.  It's actually giving you access to another Tier.  Is that a bad thing?

[Faulty Logic]

So ANY unit that is strong early game, but is not late game, is from a game winning perspective dead weight.

Not true at all for me. The first planet I take is often the hardest, the first cpas are deadly, and most of my losses occur before I ever have a ship on the AIHWs. Starships are amazing for low-AIP games, for the whole game.

You can do fleetship only games just fine.

By "fleetship only" do you mean never researching starship tech or never building starships at all?
If the former, then you can do a starship only game, even on the highest difficulties.

would have niche for them to be better then fleetships.

There are already lots of cases where starships are better. Eyes being the main one. Given a screen of fleetships (just the initial mkI fleet), starships will hardly ever die.

It is a shame that even a dev admits they are inheriently inferior

I don't think he meant that. He certainly didn't say it. He said that fleetships do some things better than starships.


Starships have different roles than fleetships. Fleetships kill things better in pitched battle. Starships do practically everything else better. They are equals, in the same sense that unlocking warp jammers is equal to unlocking fighters and bombers mkII.

[Wingflier]

On paper, Fleetships are better than Starships.  In practice, it depends heavily on the situation.

Once again though, I'll reiterate that I don't find the other Starships (aside from maybe Riot Control) to be up-to-par with the latest iteration of the Zenith and Spire Starships, for various reasons (mostly survivability and speed).  I do think that Starships should be inferior, in cost, to their Fleetship equivalents, but I'm concerned that many of the Starships are too inferior.

(Concerning Bomber Starship, neither speed, nor durability is its problem.  In fact, if anything I'd say it's way too fast.  It's problem is that it can't hit anything, and it's basically superfluous).

[chemical_art]

I don't think I understand what you're saying.

The new patch doesn't seem to be nerfing Starships from what I can tell.  It's actually giving you access to another Tier.  Is that a bad thing?

Considering the only starships I used where the new zenith and spire starships, and now they in effect cost a lot more for lower marks and the same for higher marks, and the IV's now require an irreplacable building, they have certainly been nerfed.

The other starships have had a side upgrade, since they do have access to a IV building that cannot be replacabled, but now getting the to the III costs another 2k research.