AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!

[Toranth]

Is this roughly the accumulation rate you intend?  9/9, AIP 10, 8 Champions = 2,000 points = A Nemesis every 3 minutes?

That's faster than I figured it would be, but it doesn't sound out-of-the-ballpark.  You're basically asking for a beating with that; I imagine you can still win but it gives you some kind of run for your money.  If player experience shows that it's just overwhelmingly hard with no reasonable counter, then I can tone it down.

Sounds like things work as I expected, I was just making sure.
A Heroic AI produces 7 Champions every 20 minutes, in addition to the ones that come with waves, so this isn't unreasonable.  It just seemed high for something I had figured was an 'extra'.  A Heroic AI vs 8 Champions, though, would now be producing 7 per 20 minutes PLUS 1 per 3 min, right?  That is about a 100% increase there...

Finally, is this Nemesis spawn for a single AI, or for both?  Right now, it looks like BOTH of the AIs are getting a new Nemesis unit every time the Counter-Champion-Dirty-Tricks triggers (effectively twice the rate the logs lists).

It only triggers for the first AI.  Are you seeing solid evidence that the second AI is doing it?

I'm seeing wandering Champion ships belonging to both AIs.  In my current game, my human Homeworlds sit directly on the path between the two AI homeworlds, so there is no way they could have drifted around to the other side of the universe.

I've attached a screenshot of an AI 2 Nemesis ship.

[keith.lamothe]

A Heroic AI produces 7 Champions every 20 minutes, in addition to the ones that come with waves, so this isn't unreasonable.  It just seemed high for something I had figured was an 'extra'.

Bear in mind that this is part of a replacement for the 20% stronger waves, etc you used to get per champion.  So basically before with 8 champions you were getting 2.6x wave sizes (and somewhat increased cpa/exo/etc stuff) ; now you're getting ordinary waves but a bunch of angry nemesis units instead.  Which one is preferable from a survival standpoint, I'm not sure

I'm seeing wandering Champion ships belonging to both AIs.

There's also the respawns-when-killed nemesis units the AI gets in response to you having champions: there's only one of those (per human champion) in the game at any one time though.  So they shouldn't be respawning particularly quickly (it checks them about once a minute) unless you're really throwing them in the chipper shredder somehow.

The ones from the dirty-tricks bank can keep piling up, though.

[Toranth]

I'm seeing wandering Champion ships belonging to both AIs.

There's also the respawns-when-killed nemesis units the AI gets in response to you having champions: there's only one of those (per human champion) in the game at any one time though.  So they shouldn't be respawning particularly quickly (it checks them about once a minute) unless you're really throwing them in the chipper shredder somehow.

The ones from the dirty-tricks bank can keep piling up, though.

I'd forgotten about the respawning Nemesis.  Are the those units on a per-AI basis, joint-AI (random), or first-AI?  If I've got the patch notes correct, I should expect 5 respawning AI Champions:
(8 human Champions * 1 (frigate) * (9.0/7) * (1/2) = 5.14 rounds to 5.
I'm seeing much larger groups from AI 1, but I've seen groups of Nemesis of that size from AI 2 at the same time. 

Yup, just checked my save at exactly hour 1, and each AI spawns 5 Nemesis that are threatfleet (1 each AI each minute).

I guess that explains it.


8 human Champions + Diff 9 = 5 Frigates per hull size, per AI.
5 for Frigates
10 for Destroyers
15 for Cruisers
20 for Battleships
that respawn 1 per minute as fast as you kill them.

In addition, AI 1 gets 1 per 3 minutes per Hull Size from Dirty Tricks (1 per 3 mins, 2 per 3 mins, 1 per minute, 4 per 3 mins).
In addition, a Heroic AI gets 7 per 20 minutes (of hull size = tech level), plus 2 with each wave.
In addition, there are the Defensive fleets.

That's... a lot of Nemesis.

[keith.lamothe]

I'd forgotten about the respawning Nemesis.  Are the those units on a per-AI basis, joint-AI (random), or first-AI?

Each AI gets the 1/2 number (rounding down, but minimum of 1 for the first AI if you have any champions).

and it's  If I've got the patch notes correct, I should expect 5 respawning AI Champions:
(8 human Champions * 1 (frigate) * (9.0/7) * (1/2) = 5.14 rounds to 5.

Yea, you'll get 5 from the first AI and 5 from the second AI for that.

That's... a lot of Nemesis.

You know what the AI said when you started that up with 8 champions?

That's... a lot of Champion.

And if you've actually got a diff 9 Heroic AI in there too... yea, you're basically getting what you ordered


That said, I'm fine with toning the numbers down, and of course the counter-champion response could stand to be more varied.  I'm just looking for "how does it actually feel, now?" feedback for the moment.

[Wingflier]

I'm testing it my game right now on Difficult 8.6 with two "Hard" AIs.  I didn't know what to expect so I thought I'd refrain from going 9+ on the first game, especially since it's crosshatch.  However, so far it feels basically like I've added a Heroic AI.  Random Champion attacks with no warning and whatnot.  So far I haven't found it to be overly challenging for what the Champion gives me, but then again I didn't find the extra 20% to be all that challenging either.

We'll see how it scales into the lategame.  It's certainly a lot more interesting than before

[LaughingThesaurus]

Wingflier, the next order of business should be adding champions and fighting Heroic AIs at the same time.

[Diazo]

Hmmm.

That does sound like the next step.

So, why not?

As I have no intention of taking this seriously.....

80 planet lattice map, Diff 10/10 Heroic/Heroic, single HW for me with 8 champions.

Hilarity will ensue! Especially since diff 10 starts at tech 2. I'm getting Shadow Destroyers in my face.

Keeping my own champions at home allows me to handle the Shadow destroyers with the wave, but I'm off doing the first nebula and I'm only about half done when the first Shadow Destroyers only wave hits. I'm not sure if is the Nemesis logic or the Heroic AI's periodic Shadow Ship spawns it gets for being Heroic.

Either way, 5 Shadow Destroyers hit my homeworld at the 20 minute mark. Without my own champions present I really don't have a chance.

I go splat, rather spectacularly too.

Although an interesting note on the Spire Starship as it currently stands. I'm guesstimating that it would take about 3 Shadow Frigates to kill one Spire Starship.

It's a good thing I had 8 along...

Regardless, one of the funner ways to go splat.

D.

[keith.lamothe]

I'm only about half done when the first Shadow Destroyers only wave hits. I'm not sure if is the Nemesis logic or the Heroic AI's periodic Shadow Ship spawns it gets for being Heroic.

Nemesis logic only spawns frigates, ever.  It just gets _moar_ frigates if the numbers really stack up.

Heroic is unique in that it gets the DD/CA/BB sizes.

Regardless, one of the funner ways to go splat.

Sirius Cybernetics is pleased to have been of service.  Share and Enjoy!

[keith.lamothe]

On the starship thing, here's the changes I've put in for the next version.  Feel free to chime in if you think something's off

=== Starship Later-game Rebalance ===

* We got a lot of feedback about last version's changes to the Spire and Zenith starships, and much of it pointed to starships in general being pretty good in the early/mid game but falling off the pace compared to fleet ships in the later parts of the game due to the Advanced Factory making mkIV fleet ships available and starships having no real parallel to that.  So let's see what happens if we change that.
** Note that this shouldn't have much of an impact on the early game at all; mainly it comes into play when you're in a position to actually take-and-hold the new capturables and have the resource income to use them.
** Also note that starship-only games will still generally not be viable in harder scenarios because the resource costs are so high.  These aren't intended to be able to replace fleet ships in all roles.

* Amendments/Fixes to some of the Spire/Zenith Starship changes from last version
** The change in the last version where the Spire Starship and Zenith Starship were effectively mkII/III/IV instead of mkI/II/III has been reverted.
** The AI now pays more for these in exos than it did before, since the caps are still 2 instead of 4 and thus individually stronger than they used to be.
** Waves including these now get one mark lower than they used to, due to the lower ship cap and higher individual strength.  This can result in a wave not having Spire or Zenith starships available to it at all.

* Added a new type of important capturable structure: the Advanced Starship Constructor.
** These are very similar to Advanced Factories, but instead of mkIV fleet ships these can produce the mkIV version of a starship you already have the mkIII of.
** The Scout Starship and Enclave Starship already have mkIV versions at the normal starship constructor and are not on this one's menu.
** The Cloaker Starship and Riot Starship do not have mkIV versions (the former because it didn't seem necessary, the latter because otherwise no AI ship would ever have working engines again).
** But all the other types (Flagship, Zenith Starship, Spire Starship, Heavy Bomber Starship, Plasma Siege Starship, Leech Starship, and Raid Starship) now have mkIV versions.  Like with fleet ships, they are not unlocked directly but are available at the advanced production structure when mkIII is unlocked.
*** Accordingly, the knowledge costs:
**** For the Spire and Zenith starships have been changed from 1500/3000/4000 => 500/2500/5500. (8500 total is the same as for fleet ships)
**** For the Flagship, Heavy Bomber Starship, Plasma Siege Starship, and Leech Starship have been changed from 0/2500/4000 => 0/2500/6000 (again, now 8500 total like the fleet ships)
**** For the Raid Starship have stayed at 0/4000/4000 because last version's guard post changes made their lives significantly more difficult.
** These try very hard to not seed on the same planet as an Adv Fact.

* Added Core Fabricators (specifically, in the "Experimental Starship" category) for producing the mkV versions of the Flagship, Spire Starship, Zenith Starship, Plasma Siege Starship, Leech Starship, and Raid Starship.
** Also, the experimental starship category of fabricators now seeds an extra fab at the beginning of the game (so from 2 => 3, on single-HW games).

* The Heavy Bomber Starship mkIV is now produced at the Advanced Starship Constructor, and no longer produced at the bomber-star fabricator (that now produces the mkV variant).

* Spire Corvette:
** MkIV is no longer researchable or buildable at a normal starship constructor, but instead can be built at an Advanced Starship Constructor if you've unlocked the MkIII version.
*** Knowledge cost of mkIII from 3500 => 6000 now that you get the mkIVs "for free" with an ASC.  This makes the knowledge costs of the corvette identical to other bonus types.
** Base Cap DPS of the main weapon from 120k*mk => 300k*mk (same as Spire Starship, and the corvette's modules are its extra boost for being a bonus type rather than a core type).
** Beam cycle time from 10 seconds => 3 seconds (so an actual reload of 1 second, plus the 2 second firing time), damage adjusted to maintain DPS.

[Faulty Logic]

Awesome. I've been wanting this for a while.

The advanced starship constructor should have a CSG-B on it, because its benefit is inversely proportional to how useful the FactIV is.

Riot Starship do not have mkIV versions

Awww.

[Eternaly_Lost]

That sounds awesome.

Although, does this mean I should put off starting my next game as I will need to regen the game to get the Advanced Starship Constructor or will it be added to existing games?

[TechSY730]

Awesome.

Though this does mean we now need to fear Mk. IV and Mk. V starships in AI waves and exos now that they exist. 

[Winge]

Riot Starship do not have mkIV versions

Awww.

Yeah, I was hoping too 

[keith.lamothe]

The advanced starship constructor should have a CSG-B on it, because its benefit is inversely proportional to how useful the FactIV is.

Hmm, yea, that would make sense.

Riot Starship do not have mkIV versions

Awww.

My line of reasoning was basically that if the game had Riot IVs or Vs, then you (personally) would become invincible.

I'd like to have IV/V versions of them, but first we'd have to bring the Riot down from its current "hilariously OP" level.  Their current state is not brokenly-OP, it's more of a "these aren't quite balanced but they're really fun"... but I think it would be irresponsible of me to crank them up to 11 (or 5, as the case may be)

Although, does this mean I should put off starting my next game as I will need to regen the game to get the Advanced Starship Constructor or will it be added to existing games?

No need to put it off; as with basically any capturable seeding, it's checked whenever you load or start a game: if it hasn't recorded "this type was seeded" it runs the seeding for it at that time.

[LaughingThesaurus]

You mean crank it up to V? =p