Author Topic: AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!  (Read 21207 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2013, 06:03:53 pm »
So I loaded up my game, saw that I had 4 of all three tiers of spire starships and that their damage was amazing now, and was really excited!!  Then I met a MkIV Arachnid Guard Post.  I don't have 12 anymore :(
Yea, I ran into that while testing too.  Incidentally, the arachnid's current attack power is 1/4 what it was during that test.

Anti-Starship, indeed.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2013, 06:49:29 pm »
These changes are cool and all.

One ripple is that it shows just how very, very weak the spire corvette is though. You would think it was balanced as a core ship, not a bonus ship.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2013, 06:53:51 pm »
These changes are cool and all.

One ripple is that it shows just how very, very weak the spire corvette is though. You would think it was balanced as a core ship, not a bonus ship.

When I got the spire corvette as an unlock, I used them more for their utility (especially as an additional source of mobile shields) rather than DPS.

But even then, they seemed fine to me; I felt like I was getting my "money's worth" out of them.

Could they use some tweaking, sure. But I think that saying it is very, very weak, IMO, is an overstatement.
A bit too "scattered" in its stats to really have a clear use like the other starships have? Yea I can buy that.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2013, 07:06:41 pm »
Weak?

Ok then.

If you give the MK I's their max stats, at the cost of 2250 research (if you half the cost, since the research unlocks other things, it is a raw cost of 4500) it has:

The corvette does have one thing, it is cheaper at 60% the energy and around 70% the cost. That's the end of the good news.

With the shields,  the corvette has less then 60% of the HP as the frigate with max shields (8 million base + 6 million shields versus 24 million base)

In terms of max dps, the spire frigate shoots its one beam every 3 seconds (1 second reload, 2 second fire) for 1.8 million damage.

The spire corvette shoots its beam every ten seconds (8 second reload, 2 second fire) for 1.2 million damage. The MK II lasers max damage can do an additional 108k damage per second against its best target.


Let me say this in another way: The spire frigate, a basic core ship, does over 2 times as much damage as the spire corvette in max damage. Even if you exclude the increasing disparity in research cost, the spire frigate is equal if not better then the corvette in general usage.

It would be fine is the spire corvette was core, but it is not. Just as it would not be OK to  say the bulletproof fighter would be OK compared to the basic fighter if it had less then half the max dps and at most 60% of its HP because it was bullet proof, the spire corvette is not OK to have less then half the max dps as its core cousin because it is more flexible while being unbelievably frail compared to the otherwise frailest starship.

Only if you divide both spire craft's lasers by a third, while maintaining the laser's max dps, do the two even obtain parity in damage right now.



tl;dr

Spire corvette costs 70% as much, at best with 58% the HP, around the same dps (spire frigate comes out in max dps), and the frigate is always avialable with a modest K cost while the corvette takes a bonus ship slot and a significant K investment.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 07:23:20 pm by chemical_art »
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Offline Winge

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Re: AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2013, 07:26:09 pm »
Two notes on patch effects:
1.  The AI is paying way too little for Spire and Zenith Starships in waves.  In almost every wave I've seen, the AI has the same number of Spire/Zenith Starships as it would before.  Even though they are more than twice as strong.  Yeah.
2.  The marks on the Spire and Zenith Starships show up as 1 more than listed.  I understand that they are 'bumped up' by one level, but it is a little disconcerting.
My other bonus ship is a TARDIS.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2013, 07:38:10 pm »
1.  The AI is paying way too little for Spire and Zenith Starships in waves.  In almost every wave I've seen, the AI has the same number of Spire/Zenith Starships as it would before.  Even though they are more than twice as strong.  Yeah.
Waves don't really pay for starships, they just get a free X starships where X is decided independently of the starship type in question.  Or did you mean exos or something like that?

Quote
2.  The marks on the Spire and Zenith Starships show up as 1 more than listed.  I understand that they are 'bumped up' by one level, but it is a little disconcerting.
Yea, I should have changed their names; they're supposed to be mkII-IV.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2013, 08:05:47 pm »
1.  The AI is paying way too little for Spire and Zenith Starships in waves.  In almost every wave I've seen, the AI has the same number of Spire/Zenith Starships as it would before.  Even though they are more than twice as strong.  Yeah.
Waves don't really pay for starships, they just get a free X starships where X is decided independently of the starship type in question.  Or did you mean exos or something like that?

Both?

Exo costs should have gone up a bit for these two. (to about, but maybe not quite to what their Mk. one level up would be, like the new Spire starship Mk. I should cost about as much as the old Spire starship Mk. II did in exo waves)
Also, for waves, if the AI is ineligible for Mk. II starships, they should not be able to get the new Mk. I Spire/Zenith starship, now that they are balanced like Mk. II starships. This is similar for what is done with raid starships. EDIT: Is it that the lowest level Spire/Zenith starship is now considered Mk. II? If so, that would take care of this point.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 08:15:42 pm by TechSY730 »

Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2013, 08:07:25 pm »
As eager as I am to see the buffed guard posts, the few issues in this patch mean I am probably going to wait for 6.012 to come out. Is the plan still to release it as a "hotfix"?

Offline Diazo

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Re: AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2013, 08:35:37 pm »
Ummm.

I think something went wonky on the Spire Starship.

Ship cap of 2 Mk III (highest mark) does 2.4million DPS, assuming full time on target.

Ship cap of Bombers Mk V (yes, five), does 2.3million DPS against targets they have their x6 bonus against.

This is on paper, I have not actually played with them, but that seems out of whack?

Oddly, the Zenith Starship does not have this issue, the Mk III  comes out to 1.6million DPS against targets they have a bonus against, which is about what I would expect.

This is on normal combat style, normal ship caps.

Wiki is not updated for these changes yet.

Anyone actually used these yet?

D.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2013, 09:00:09 pm »
There is some confusion on my end. In fact, it is causing headaches.

In the notes, the cap health refers to single units health, then the damage for the spire ship is only half the actual value of the ship.
 
Then I remember they are inherently mk II, and i think that is the source of the problem. The base unit is actually half the value you see.

So that 2.4 million dps is from spire ships IV, not III's.

Zenith ships have the same max dps as their human counterparts, but are much, much stouter.


That said, I think they should retain their relatively high dps, but their health can be nerfed. I think 20 million cap health would be fine.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 09:08:45 pm by chemical_art »
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Offline Diazo

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Re: AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2013, 09:15:06 pm »
On my last post, I patched to 6.011 and manually did all the numbers in a calculator so no guarantees I did not mess the math up, but I'm pretty sure I double checked everything.

After thinking on it for another 30 minutes, I'm actually thinking this path in general is not the way to go.

This is going back to the older starship style we had where the starships were super units that never died. (For reference, the current lowest mark Zenith SS is still significantly cheaper then the old Plasma Siege Mk I (Dreadnaught at the time) used to be and still has lower HP and damage.)

It also breaks the starships up into two distinct tiers in general.

Now, if we want to break starships up into two groups, the "fleet support" ships and the "independant operation" ships, then we've got a good start on that, but with the other tiers of super-weapons in the game already, do we want to add another tier to the power chart?

(Again, this is theory crafting on paper, have not actually used them yet.)

Having said that, I don't know if I want an immediate nerf the next patch, the reports of ships with the spire beam weapon have consistently been that they do worse then their numbers state they will. Right now these numbers are so high though that I'm thinking we do need a nerf eventually.

D.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2013, 09:25:03 pm »
On my last post, I patched to 6.011 and manually did all the numbers in a calculator so no guarantees I did not mess the math up, but I'm pretty sure I double checked everything.

It is weird, but here is why I know so: The "II" does not double the stats of the "I", like a true "I" one. Thus, it is in all but name a MK II unit. It is also why the zenith and spire ships cost twice as much.


After thinking on it for another 30 minutes, I'm actually thinking this path in general is not the way to go.

This is going back to the older starship style we had where the starships were super units that never died. (For reference, the current lowest mark Zenith SS is still significantly cheaper then the old Plasma Siege Mk I (Dreadnaught at the time) used to be and still has lower HP and damage.)

It also breaks the starships up into two distinct tiers in general.

Now, if we want to break starships up into two groups, the "fleet support" ships and the "independant operation" ships, then we've got a good start on that, but with the other tiers of super-weapons in the game already, do we want to add another tier to the power chart?

I actually like them being tough. On paper and caps, they aren't that much stronger. They feel stronger because of the double whammy of halfing caps and 50% buff in health leading to each unit being 3x stronger then before...they still cost 200k resources though. For once, I can finally use them as independent units, and not as part of a fleet blob.

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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2013, 10:24:18 pm »
I think the current DPS of the spire starship IV (reads as III, is IV) is a mistake. It doesn't match the patch notes, in any case (unless I don't get what base-cap DPS means).
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[spire starship]Base Cap-DPS from 240k*mk => 300k*mk.
(300k*mk4) 1.2million != 2.4 million (3.6 mil * 2 ships / 3 second effective reload)

Quote
This is going back to the older starship style we had where the starships were super units that never died.
No, they are tough, but not on the level of golems/high spirecraft/champions. They die if they are put against large numbers of fleetships.
Quote
It also breaks the starships up into two distinct tiers in general.
Starships have always had two ways to play them; this was a large part of their appeal. In the fleet blob, they almost never die, while providing a significant DPS increase.
In a starship-only subfleet, they can usually be microed to victory, but you will probably lose at least a few.
Neither of those have changed.
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but with the other tiers of super-weapons in the game already, do we want to add another tier to the power chart?
They should be tough, so losing more than a couple normally doesn't happen. This justifies their comparatively huge resource cost.

They should be able to act independently from the fleet. They are.

They are their own tier, above fleetships and guardians but below superweapons (low-level spirecraft notwithstansding).
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2013, 10:57:22 pm »
I think the current DPS of the spire starship IV (reads as III, is IV) is a mistake. It doesn't match the patch notes, in any case (unless I don't get what base-cap DPS means).
Quote
[spire starship]Base Cap-DPS from 240k*mk => 300k*mk.
(300k*mk4) 1.2million != 2.4 million (3.6 mil * 2 ships / 3 second effective reload)

There is only one reason why I think it could work.

The "cap health" numbers are halved as well, so maybe Keith in his patch notes did some transcribing errors? The health does look right.
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Offline Diazo

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Re: AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2013, 11:03:50 pm »
Keep in mind the patch notes are for High ship caps and epic combat style I believe.

I play, and did the wiki, on normal ship caps and normal combat style, so double the DPS numbers, but not the cap numbers as starship cap does not change with the Ship Cap Setting.

And ya, do fallen spire exo-waves prioritize starships? Two spirecraft, escorted by 15 or so starships, owies.

D.