AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!

[keith.lamothe]

I think something may have gone sideways in the changes to the spire starship, though I think there's also a perception problem.

They literally are mkII/mkIII/mkIV units now.  There are no mkIs.  So the first tier you can build has 2x the stats listed in the patch notes, and the second tier has 3x the stats listed in the patch notes (and 1.5x that of the first one).

I'm thinking that even if I fix the names to better reflect their actual mark level that this will never "sit right" with the players, so I think I"m going to "unpromote" them (and the zenith starships) back down to mkI/mkII/mkIII (and adjust their knowledge cost down accordingly) and keep all the other changes.

And yes, the exos are paying the same rates they used to.  I knew that would happen, and was morbidly curious to see if you would even notice.  Well, I have an answer   I'll adjust their exo costs to be roughly 2x what they were before, to adjust for the halving of the cap.

[Diazo]

Alright.

I think that takes care of the actual problems I have with this change.

The balance point where their stats should be is a matter of opinion of course.

This will take care of the issue with the exo-wave costs and the lowest tier (Mk II stats) showing up as Mk I starships in regular waves though so the actual problems are fixed (as far as I can see.)

D.

[TechSY730]

I think something may have gone sideways in the changes to the spire starship, though I think there's also a perception problem.

They literally are mkII/mkIII/mkIV units now.  There are no mkIs.  So the first tier you can build has 2x the stats listed in the patch notes, and the second tier has 3x the stats listed in the patch notes (and 1.5x that of the first one).

I'm thinking that even if I fix the names to better reflect their actual mark level that this will never "sit right" with the players, so I think I"m going to "unpromote" them (and the zenith starships) back down to mkI/mkII/mkIII (and adjust their knowledge cost down accordingly) and keep all the other changes.

And yes, the exos are paying the same rates they used to.  I knew that would happen, and was morbidly curious to see if you would even notice.  Well, I have an answer   I'll adjust their exo costs to be roughly 2x what they were before, to adjust for the halving of the cap.

That still won't fix the issue where the AI effectively gets "two starships in one" when it chooses a Zenith/Spire starship in a wave, due to the halving of the cap and thus doubling their individual effectiveness.

EDIT: Isn't the raid starship semi-gated even though it is Mk. I? Like, you won't see raid starships Mk. I in "small" Mk. I waves. You'll only start seeing them Mk. I of them in Mk. II waves or in large, "nearish the Mk. II point" Mk. I waves. Maybe something similar should be done for Zenith/Spire starships?

[chemical_art]

@chemical_art: If they went back to true mk I's at a cap of 4, but kept their buffed stats, you would still never use them? Is is just a starships thing where you never unlock/build them?

For me, i just never got the vibe others describe as starships are ok with less then average cap dps because they were tough and low caps. They still felt too frail. With them finally going to a cap of 2 and starting at MK II, for me, they finally gave me that vibe. Early game I can spend 3k and for early game do my offenses with starships for once. Knowing I could keep that vibe going even late game with MK IV's, it made me consider them a good investment. This is the first time I felt good using starships alone sans raids (and with the new guardpost changes, I consider raids a no go. MK III posts break through their armor on a regular basis)

Seeing as they are going back to I / II / III, I guess I'll just savor the time I have with them :/


It makes me sad that a simple text error poisoned their introduction so thoroughly. The ironic thing is it is something only vets would notice, a new player probably would not care so much.

[Hearteater]

Spire Starship DPS went up 500% per unit and health 600%.  They were available in the first wave of the game and Exos paid the old price for them.  That wasn't a "text error" that poisoned them, that was a sledgehammer to the face.

[keith.lamothe]

Seeing as they are going back to I / II / III, I guess I'll just savor the time I have with them :/

I don't understand this, because their caps are staying at 2 and their other buffs are staying, and their costs (both m+c and K) are coming back down proportional to the mark change.  Were you basing your usage on the availability of the MkIVs?  The MkIIs and MkIIIs will still be available exactly as they are now, the only difference is that you have to unlock the mkI to get to them (and their K costs may be somewhat different, possibly even lower).

The main reason I'm going back on the mark-promotion thing is that these would suddenly be the only two units in the game where "the scale starts at 2", and I just figured that would just be an unending source of confusion.

And yea, the promoted units being available to the AI's waves and exos on the same terms as before is just my mistake; I anticipated a balance impact, but not nearly that much of one

[chemical_art]

@Keith

Two things that are interconnected.

For me, the core is that what I discovered through this update is that for any starship, it really isn't strong enough to survive stand alone actions until MK II.   They simply are not durable enough for it, and their 10k energy cost means the narrow window when they could, their energy cost is too high. I have better luck with spire stealth battleships then I do with non raid starships for behind the lines actions.

So rather then the old method of spending 3500 K to get a single class of starships able to go out alone, I can instead get two II classes of starships. It was balanced, of course, because you could not get the MK I varients of them, but I didn't consider them viable anyway, so it worked for me.

In addition, for 8500 k, I could finally get a starship that is strong until the end game no matter what. So I didn't feel like the K I spent getting a starship early wasn't K that I could save to get another MK IV fleetship, but rather it is K that if needed to unlock another MK IV starship.


Now, they are just another starship. Those who used starships before will still use them. Those who don't, or me at least, will go back to not using them.

I really wouldn't even care, except for once I experienced something that wasn't blob on blob combat. (By the way, the stronger guard posts have given yet another reason to blob)

[keith.lamothe]

Will think about the mark promotion thing.  Considering making all combat starships effectively II/III/IV, though I think that would make that category of unit have more impact on the game than may be a good idea.

(By the way, the stronger guard posts have given yet another reason to blob)

How so?  If there's an arachnid IV post, is it better to send your whole blob or to hold the starships back?  If there's a mkIV post that gets bonus vs polycrystal, is it better to send the whole blob or hold the bombers back?

As opposed to posts that basically weren't there from a tactical perspective.

[chemical_art]

The guard posts do good damage, yes, and excellent damage to their counter.

The anti-starship guard post is the exception because it has a 0 multiplier to so many things.

However, since they are still frail, it still takes less then two volleys of the blob to kill the guardpost. So I end up taking about the same amount of causalities. Maybe give the guardpost more hp, and give them a dps penalty against the hull of their triangle counter? So the missile post would get three times as much health, but against bomber, it does a third of the damage?

[keith.lamothe]

However, since they are still frail, it still takes less then two volleys of the blob to kill the guardpost. So I end up taking about the same amount of causalities. Maybe give the guardpost more hp, and give them a dps penalty against the hull of their triangle counter? So the missile post would get three times as much health, but against bomber, it does a third of the damage?

The tricky thing is that I'm getting the strong impression that further increasing (much less tripling) post health is going to really slow the game down. (edit: specifically in a way folks really don't enjoy)

[Diazo]

For me, the core is that what I discovered through this update is that for any starship, it really isn't strong enough to survive stand alone actions until MK II.   They simply are not durable enough for it, and their 10k energy cost means the narrow window when they could, their energy cost is too high. I have better luck with spire stealth battleships then I do with non raid starships for behind the lines actions.

Define stand-alone action. Remeber that Mk I starships are supposed to be roughly equal to Mk I fleet ships. If you are sending them into a fight that would mulch Mk I fleet ships, it should mulch Mk I starships also.

So rather then the old method of spending 3500 K to get a single class of starships able to go out alone, I can instead get two II classes of starships. It was balanced, of course, because you could not get the MK I varients of them, but I didn't consider them viable anyway, so it worked for me.

In addition, for 8500 k, I could finally get a starship that is strong until the end game no matter what. So I didn't feel like the K I spent getting a starship early wasn't K that I could save to get another MK IV fleetship, but rather it is K that if needed to unlock another MK IV starship.

This actually raises a good point. With starships maxing out at Mk III, they definitely suffer in the end game against the core worlds and AI homeworlds.

What about changing the balance point on starships to Mark + half, by that I mean the starships Mk I are equivalent to about half way between Mk I and II of their equivalent fleet ship?

The other alternative is to just make a Mk IV starship for everything, but I'm not sure the knowledge costs associated with a Mk IV level of starships could be balanced easily.  At a certain point, the high health of the starship fleet is going to snowball and the AI will simply not be able to kill anything, even on a homeworld assault.

Note I'm talking all starships here, not just Zenith and Spire. I think the biggest thing this current change has revealed is that starships having the same balance point as fleet ships (from a numbers perspective) lets the fleet ships overshadow the starships because in the game firepower is worth more then survivability. The question then becomes what the balance point, or role, of starships could be.

D.

[keith.lamothe]

This actually raises a good point. With starships maxing out at Mk III, they definitely suffer in the end game against the core worlds and AI homeworlds.

What about changing the balance point on starships to Mark + half, by that I mean the starships Mk I are equivalent to about half way between Mk I and II of their equivalent fleet ship?

I think just jumping the combat-starships up to II/III/IV would be simpler (if I start the Is at 1.5, does that make II and III into 3.0 and 4.5? etc; better to go with 2.0, 3.0, and 4.0 I think).

The other alternative is to just make a Mk IV starship for everything, but I'm not sure the knowledge costs associated with a Mk IV level of starships could be balanced easily.  At a certain point, the high health of the starship fleet is going to snowball and the AI will simply not be able to kill anything, even on a homeworld assault.

I'm not too worried about the health getting too high; a general thing I've noticed about unit balance is that in this game _any_ unit dies in truly heavy fighting.  Just not enough numbers on an Int32 for any other outcome, at the current scale of things.

Though it's possible that this could unbalance things in a bunch of ways, so I'm kind of hesitant.

[Faulty Logic]

I don't think guard posts beyond the early stages are supposed to be much of a speedbump to the blob. Or, once you take a few planets, the actual act of taking another shouldn't be that hard.

What guard posts are supposed to do is make raids interesting, make AI space less friendly to operate in, make early planets difficult, and be an actual factor in various battles, including forcing some tactics against high-mark planets. The potential headaches with eyes/fortresses/other stuff is a bonus.

The main issue with starships as they cost about as much K as bringing the fleetships up to the same level, except fleetships have an advanced factory.
For example, bombers vs bomber starships:
Bombers take 8500 k to bring up from mkI to mkIV.
Bomber starships take 6500 k to bring from mkI to mkIII.
And bonus fleetships (which are supposed to be stronger than their triangle counterparts, only take 6000k to bring to mkIV).

I maintain that starships are quite useful and more flexible than fleetships, but I almost never unlock combat starships.

I propose an advanced starship constructor, either as its own structure, a member of the fabricator family (replacing the starbomberIV fab), or as a function of the existing advanced factory. In addition, I would like the fleetship x.5 energy multiplier to apply to mkI starships as well.

[TechSY730]

Yea, I think this discussion and experiment has revealed that the current balance point for Mk. I combat starships isn't really working. Something needs to change for all of the starships.
The Zenith and the Spire starships won out though because they were below even that balance mark for Mk. I combat starships.


EDIT:

The other alternative is to just make a Mk IV starship for everything, but I'm not sure the knowledge costs associated with a Mk IV level of starships could be balanced easily.  At a certain point, the high health of the starship fleet is going to snowball and the AI will simply not be able to kill anything, even on a homeworld assault.

I'm not too worried about the health getting too high; a general thing I've noticed about unit balance is that in this game _any_ unit dies in truly heavy fighting.  Just not enough numbers on an Int32 for any other outcome, at the current scale of things.

This is actually a pretty huge problem in my eyes, as it shows how bad the unit "inflation" has gotten, and now it is making it tricky to balance due to data type limitations. Once you start hitting data type limitations, you really need to start rethinking things.

However, this isn't a huge enough deal to drop all other balance concerns in AI War to work on this...yet.

[TechSY730]

This actually raises a good point. With starships maxing out at Mk III, they definitely suffer in the end game against the core worlds and AI homeworlds.

What about changing the balance point on starships to Mark + half, by that I mean the starships Mk I are equivalent to about half way between Mk I and II of their equivalent fleet ship?

I think just jumping the combat-starships up to II/III/IV would be simpler (if I start the Is at 1.5, does that make II and III into 3.0 and 4.5? etc; better to go with 2.0, 3.0, and 4.0 I think).

I think the proposal was to have a cap of Mk. I starships be roughly as strong as a 1.5x of a cap of Mk. I fleetships (which would roughly be the same as a theoritical cap of mk. 1.5 fleet ships).

Then, scale up from there linearly as normal. (So a Mk. II starship would still be 2x as good as a mk. 1 starship. Mk. III 3x as good, etc)