AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!

[chemical_art]

Keep in mind the patch notes are for High ship caps and epic combat style I believe.

I play, and did the wiki, on normal ship caps and normal combat style, so double the DPS numbers, but not the cap numbers as starship cap does not change with the Ship Cap Setting.

And ya, do fallen spire exo-waves prioritize starships? Two spirecraft, escorted by 15 or so starships, owies.

D.

That...makes them add up.

If my theory of them starting as MK II is correct, the cap numbers for MK I's would, coincidentally, make them appear the same for one as a MK II due to the 2 unit cap.

[Diazo]

Ohh, now I see what you are trying to say.

And yes, from the patch notes:

Effective mark level from 1/2/3 to 2/3/4, so that the mkI is balanced like a mkII starship, the mkII is balanced like a mkIII starship, etc.

So yes, the lowest mark Zenith Starship in the game is "Mark II" going to "Mark IV" despite the text displays being mostly Mark I to Mark III still.

D.

[chemical_art]

Maybe there is something else, but in one system my spire starships, even while buffed, just get obliterated. Can't even see the projectile. Thought it was snipers, but even with scout starships they still just disappear.

Oh right, missile post III do 1.8 million dps per second now against their best target...uh huh.

[chemical_art]

Didn't take long for me to find this noose...

actually, second world I stumbled into.


Missile post under shield.

Missile post inherently counters raiders hard.

AI Eye prevents bomber drops.

Not saying it is a tight noose, but it is a hard one.

[Hearteater]

How does it prevent Bomber drops?  You can drop a full cap of Bombers on that without triggering the Eye.  You might want to use some Fighters first to clear out the Guardians first (just don't kill any fleet ships with them).  I really find Eyes to be a more "in your head" threat than actual threat.

[chemical_art]

The noose isn't tight, in that it is lethal, but it is hard, in that it is a pain in the bum to fix.

For example, with the missile posts as is kill any bomber lower mark then it. Meaning every 3 seconds in my early game (remember this is just a run of the mill MK III world) I will lose a cap of bombers or more, just from that. Removing the annoying spider guardians and ion cannons would deplete all but 30 or so of the units there, so I could send in a cap or so at a time in addition to that.

None of this is impossible, but on the other hand (maybe I'm just spoiled) but I considered this level of work the exception, not the rule, to ai defenses. During later game I'll have MK III bombers, which will be nice, since they can live six seconds instead of three against the guard post.

[LaughingThesaurus]

I mean aren't the mark III worlds supposed to be really hard to take by way of mark I ships? I'm not surprised that you're having trouble assailing a planet with a much higher tech level than your available tech level. If anything this makes a whoooooole lot more sense than it used to.

[chemical_art]

The issue isn't that I'm using Mk I ships, the issue is that even at MK III units it would be costly, period. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

A cap of bomber II's against a missile post and a shield, both of which should be countered alone by the bombers, will still all die from the post alone. Even against a cap of MK III's, over half the cap dies from the post alone.

It seems...inelegant. I shudder to imagine a needler under the shield, whereit is 6 times as worst.

[TechSY730]

The noose isn't tight, in that it is lethal, but it is hard, in that it is a pain in the bum to fix.

For example, with the missile posts as is kill any bomber lower mark then it. Meaning every 3 seconds in my early game (remember this is just a run of the mill MK III world) I will lose a cap of bombers or more, just from that. Removing the annoying spider guardians and ion cannons would deplete all but 30 or so of the units there, so I could send in a cap or so at a time in addition to that.

None of this is impossible, but on the other hand (maybe I'm just spoiled) but I considered this level of work the exception, not the rule, to ai defenses. During later game I'll have MK III bombers, which will be nice, since they can live six seconds instead of three against the guard post.

This level of toughness probably will still be the exception, but I am glad to see that guard posts are something to actually consider now, especially under "glass".

That said, now that guard posts can put up something resembling a fight, it may be good idea to reduce the spawn rate of AI forcefields to compensate, now that the AI no longer really needs those as a defensive "crutch" as much.

[onyhow]

Spire starship rebalance makes it so that Corvette is extremely weak compared to it...

Also I think Spire starship actually have base cap DPS of 600k*mk...are you sure that's correct?

[Diazo]

@Onyhow: Pretty much anything is weak against the Spire Starship at the moment....

Anyways, having had a night to think on it, I believe there are two things that need to happen, both ripple effects of these new ships getting into AI hands.

The zenith and spire SS need to get the Mark I level back and go back to a cap of 4.

There are simply too many places that the AI gets starships and as far as I can tell none of the costs the AI pays have been adjusted.

Take the first wave of a game new game which hits about the 10-15 minute mark. The AI rolls a Spire Starship up, you have a few fleet ships to deal with and a Spire Starship that can knock your Home FF down in 15 seconds that takes forever to kill.

For reference, in my fallen spire game in progress I had a regular AI wave hit one of my fortresses worlds. The Zenith SS survived after everything else and took another entire salvo from 2x Fort Mk Is backed by 100+ turrets to kill.

As they are, because the AI quite often just "gets a starship", right now a lot of things are being thrown out of whack.

In theory, you could go through the game and adjust the cost to the AI for these new starships, or you could return them to the mold, keeping their tweaked stats, but returning them to a cap of 4 and putting the true Mk I back.

Keeping the Mk IV would be nice I admit, but that lack of a Mk I Spire and Zenith starship is really throwing things off at the moment.

D.

[chemical_art]

And, as much as I know for Keith will be aggravating:

If you go back to making spire and zenith ships mk I's, and at 4 cap, I'll use them just as often as I did before the changes to consolidating their power: I won't.

[TechSY730]

@Onyhow: Pretty much anything is weak against the Spire Starship at the moment....

Anyways, having had a night to think on it, I believe there are two things that need to happen, both ripple effects of these new ships getting into AI hands.

The zenith and spire SS need to get the Mark I level back and go back to a cap of 4.

There are simply too many places that the AI gets starships and as far as I can tell none of the costs the AI pays have been adjusted.

Take the first wave of a game new game which hits about the 10-15 minute mark. The AI rolls a Spire Starship up, you have a few fleet ships to deal with and a Spire Starship that can knock your Home FF down in 15 seconds that takes forever to kill.

For reference, in my fallen spire game in progress I had a regular AI wave hit one of my fortresses worlds. The Zenith SS survived after everything else and took another entire salvo from 2x Fort Mk Is backed by 100+ turrets to kill.

As they are, because the AI quite often just "gets a starship", right now a lot of things are being thrown out of whack.

In theory, you could go through the game and adjust the cost to the AI for these new starships, or you could return them to the mold, keeping their tweaked stats, but returning them to a cap of 4 and putting the true Mk I back.

Keeping the Mk IV would be nice I admit, but that lack of a Mk I Spire and Zenith starship is really throwing things off at the moment.

D.

Agree. Either make the lowest tier of Zenith/Spire starships true Mk. IIs (so that the AI cannot put them into Mk. I waves), or make them Mk. I again and scale their stats accordingly.

Also agree with putting the ship cap back up to 4 (and rescaling accordingly of course). The weird way AIs pay for starships makes it too hard to balance for a "low cap" starship in AI hands.

And, as much as I know for Keith will be aggravating:

If you go back to making spire and zenith ships mk I's, and at 4 cap, I'll use them just as often as I did before the changes to consolidating their power: I won't.

I'm sort of with you there. I would rather have the lowest tier of Zenith/Spire starships a true Mk. II unit (with the restrictions on AI use that would imply) than rolling back the Mk. II "start point" change all together.

[Hearteater]

I believe the only time the AI pays for Starships oddly is in waves, where it gets X starships.  This mechanic assumes all starships are created equally.  In Exos and such I believe it pays more of a true cost, so the recent changes should result in fewer zenith/spire starships spawning.  So really, it is just waves that are an issue.  I think making them officially Mark II should go a long way to helping early-game wave difficulty by making spire/zenith not eligible.

[Diazo]

I believe the only time the AI pays for Starships oddly is in waves, where it gets X starships.  This mechanic assumes all starships are created equally.  In Exos and such I believe it pays more of a true cost, so the recent changes should result in fewer zenith/spire starships spawning.  So really, it is just waves that are an issue.  I think making them officially Mark II should go a long way to helping early-game wave difficulty by making spire/zenith not eligible.

The thing is, I don't think the costs it pays for exos were adjusted.

The exos I faced trying to build my first Spire city last night were heavy on the new spire and zenith starships, to the tune of only 2 spirecraft to 19 spire and zenith SS in the wave.

I fear a Spire SS more then I fear most Spirecraft at the moment so that feels way off to me.

Now, after one night all I have is what I feel, not real feedback, but I'm pretty sure this SS change has resulted in a much harder Exo wave that I'm currently trying to beat. (6.011 as compared to 6.010)


@chemical_art: If they went back to true mk I's at a cap of 4, but kept their buffed stats, you would still never use them? Is is just a starships thing where you never unlock/build them?


 I hear (not aimed at you chemical) a lot of people talk about "independent action", but 2 or 4 starships are not supposed to be able to clear a Mk III system with any notable number of defenders (at least in my personal understanding of the game).

If you want a unit truly capable of independent action, you are looking at golems. Starships are supposed to be roughly equivalent to fleet ships but tradiing firepower for more health. If a cap of fleet ships would shrivel up and die when sent after a target, a equivalent cap of starships will also shrivel up and die.

Starships are supposed to be equivalent to fleet ships, just they deal with things different because they prioritize survival instead of firepower like fleet ships do.

D.