AI War Beta 6.011 "Nemesis of the Dubious Honor" Released!

[Faulty Logic]

Just to gather feedback, would people feel that reducing bomber starship speed would be a buff or a nerf in usability?

A nerf. I don't mind microing starships, and you can get it stay with the fleet easily with group-move.

[Diazo]

@Keith: Alright, that works for me.

@Tech: As long as the bomber starship has a speed at least equal to that of the fleet ship bomber, there will be no change in how I use it.

I use the bomber starship for it's polycrystal hull against forts, and that is about it.

Solo target, especially under FFs, to take out (such as a guard post)? Raid Starship. (Have not experienced the new guard posts yet.)

Anything else? My fleet can kill it, without the restriction of not being able to hit small targets along the way.

I still build the Mk I Bomber SS because it is a valuable contribution when taking out forts and with the buffed guard posts it might be worthwhile for taking out the buffed guard posts that have a bonus against raid SS, but as long as their speed stays at least equal to fleet ship bombers, it will not affect their usability at all for me.

D.

[Wingflier]

Ok, I'll ratchet the heavy-bomber and siege dps up a bit from those numbers, then, and maybe make the siege not quite so slow.

Thanks for the feedback

Thanks Keith!

[keith.lamothe]

Ok, made those changes; here's the relevant section of the 6.012 notes as of now:

=== Starship Rebalance (Later-game power, role compared to fleet ships) ===

* We got a lot of feedback about last version's changes to the Spire and Zenith starships, and much of it pointed to starships in general being pretty good in the early/mid game but falling off the pace compared to fleet ships in the later parts of the game due to the Advanced Factory making mkIV fleet ships available and starships having no real parallel to that.  So let's see what happens if we change that.
** Note that this shouldn't have much of an impact on the early game at all; mainly it comes into play when you're in a position to actually take-and-hold the new capturables and have the resource income to use them.
** Also note that starship-only games will still generally not be viable in harder scenarios because the resource costs are so high.  These aren't intended to be able to replace fleet ships in all roles.
** Thanks to chemical_art, TechSY730, Winge, Faulty Logic, Diazo, onyhow, Hearteater, Dichotomy, Jonz0rz, Wingflier, and others for inspiring these changes.

* Amendments/Fixes to some of the Spire/Zenith Starship changes from last version
** The change in the last version where the Spire Starship and Zenith Starship were effectively mkII/III/IV instead of mkI/II/III has been reverted.
** The AI now pays more for these in exos than it did before, since the cap reduction made them individually stronger than they used to be.
** Waves including these now get one mark lower than they used to, due to the lower ship cap and higher individual strength.  This can result in a wave not having Spire or Zenith starships available to it at all.

* Added a new type of important capturable structure: the Advanced Starship Constructor.
** These are very similar to Advanced Factories, but instead of mkIV fleet ships these can produce the mkIV version of a starship you already have the mkIII of.
** The Scout Starship and Enclave Starship already have mkIV versions at the normal starship constructor and are not on this one's menu.
** The Cloaker Starship and Riot Starship do not have mkIV versions (the former because it didn't seem necessary, the latter because otherwise no AI ship would ever have working engines again).
** But all the other types (Flagship, Zenith Starship, Spire Starship, Heavy Bomber Starship, Plasma Siege Starship, Leech Starship, and Raid Starship) now have mkIV versions.  Like with fleet ships, they are not unlocked directly but are available at the advanced production structure when mkIII is unlocked.
** These try very hard to not seed on the same planet as an Adv Fact.

* Added Core Fabricators (specifically, in the "Experimental Starship" category) for producing the mkV versions of the Flagship, Spire Starship, Zenith Starship, Plasma Siege Starship, Leech Starship, and Raid Starship.
** Also, the experimental starship category of fabricators now seeds an extra fab at the beginning of the game (so from 2 => 3, on single-HW games).

* The Heavy Bomber Starship mkIV is now produced at the Advanced Starship Constructor, and no longer produced at the bomber-star fabricator (that now produces the mkV variant).

* Spire Corvette:
** MkIV is no longer researchable or buildable at a normal starship constructor, but instead can be built at an Advanced Starship Constructor if you've unlocked the MkIII version.
*** Knowledge cost of mkIII from 3500 => 6000 now that you get the mkIVs "for free" with an ASC.  This makes the knowledge costs of the corvette identical to other bonus types.
** Base Cap DPS of the main weapon from 120k*mk => 300k*mk (same as Spire Starship, and the corvette's modules are its extra boost for being a bonus type rather than a core type).
** Beam cycle time from 10 seconds => 3 seconds (so an actual reload of 1 second, plus the 2 second firing time), damage adjusted to maintain DPS.
** Note that these are really considered a "bonus fleet ship" for balance purposes, they're just built like a starship.

* Another important point about starships that's really come to light that starships have been competing with fleet ships more-or-less directly in terms of Knowledge-costs and thus players are seeing them as replacements for fleet ships when they're really supposed to be more of a supporting category (like, for instance, turrets: turrets are great, but they don't displace the role of fleet ships).  So we're trying something new with that too:

* The knowledge costs for the Flagship, Heavy Bomber Starship, Plasma Siege Starship, and Leech Starship are now 0/1000/3000 and the the costs for the Zenith Starship and Spire Starship, are now 500/1000/2500, for a total of 4000 to unlock mkIII (and thus mkIV if you have an ASC), compared to the 8500 K needed to do the same for a triangle fleet ship type.
** In return, the overall dps of starships is coming down: you'll still be getting a good deal in terms of DPS-per-K return, but you won't be able to "buy" all your DPS that way because there's only so much total starship cap available.
** Overall, the effect is to make starships "as a category" more explicitly a support-role compared to fleet ships "as a category", while still emphasizing them as individually-powerful (and very durable, relative to fleet ships) units.  You can probably still go "starship-only" in easier scenarios, or in the early (and maybe mid, with an ASC) game in a harder scenario, but in general going "starship-only" is just not going to give you the needed core of firepower to replace fleet ships.  But you won't be paying fleet-ship-levels of K to get them, either, which is the main thing.

* Flagship:
** Ship cap from 4 => 2 (health and damage adjusted to maintain cap values).
** Munitions boost range from 2000+(1000*mk) => 4000+(2000*mk) (which also increases the "total ship area" it can boost simultaneously) to compensate for fewer individual boosting platforms.
** Base CapDPS from 50k => 30k.
** Cap m/c cost from 240k/160k => 120k/80k.
** Cap e cost from 40k => 20k.

* Zenith Starship:
** Ship cap from 2 => 1 (health and damage adjusted to maintain cap values).
** Base CapDPS from 50k => 40k.
** Cap m/c cost is 80k/120k (has been since last version, but worth mentioning).
** Cap e cost is 20k (ditto).

* Spire Starship:
** Ship cap from 2 => 1 (health and damage adjusted to maintain cap values).
** Base CapDPS from 300k => 180k.
** Cap m/c cost is 90k/110k (has been since last version, but worth mentioning).
** Cap e cost is 20k (ditto).

* Heavy Bomber Starship:
** Ship cap from 4 => 2 (health and damage adjusted to maintain cap values).
** CapHealth from 28M => 36M.
** Base CapDPS from 140k => 120k (would have dropped it more, but generally getting a feel that these felt underpowered previously).
** Cap m/c cost from 340k/60k => 170k/30k.
** Cap e cost from 40k => 20k.

* Plasma Siege Starship:
** Ship cap from 4 => 2 (health and damage adjusted to maintain cap values).
** Base Cap DPS from 100k => 90k (would have dropped it more, but generally getting a feel that these felt underpowered previously).
** Cap m/c cost from 60k/340k => 30k/170k.
** Cap e cost from 40k => 20k.
** Base move speed from 8 => 12 (now same as missile frigate, the slowest triangle ship).

* Leech Starship:
** Ship cap from 4 => 2 (health and damage adjusted to maintain cap values).
** Base Cap DPS from 72k => 40k.
** Cap m/c cost from 240k/160k => 120k/80k.
** Cap e cost from 40k => 20k.

I think at this point that playtesting is needed before much further iteration can be done, but if you think something is way off let me know.  FWIW I did not change the exo costs or wave "costs" of the starships in this part of the changes since the overall individual firepower didn't go up 2x (durability did).  If that's a huge issue I can try to address it; with exos it's not too hard but in waves it's kind of non-granular.  Frankly I don't have a problem with the AI having a slightly bigger hammer in its starships

Hoping to get 6.012 out tomorrow before noon; got a few other things I want to address first.

[Diazo]

It's looking good now.

Going to get my hands on these and scrub that new-paint smell off!

But really, I am looking forward to this, I've tried all SS games before so it will be interesting to see how this stacks up.

D.

[Faulty Logic]

So, will the ASC have a CSG-B or not?

[keith.lamothe]

So, will the ASC have a CSG-B or not?

It will, put that in a moment ago.  Adds more choices of which B planet to pick, which is good.

[Wingflier]

Changes look great Keith, can't wait for new patch.

[chemical_art]

Changes look great Keith 

[Eternaly_Lost]

So, the only change for the Raid Starship is that it now has a MKIV? Nothing else has changed?

[TechSY730]

So, the only change for the Raid Starship is that it now has a MKIV? Nothing else has changed?

And a mark V version too.

But other than that, seems like it.
Then again, Raid Starships were already doing pretty well, AFAIK.

[Diazo]

So, the only change for the Raid Starship is that it now has a MKIV? Nothing else has changed?

My assumption is that the Raid Starship is waiting on feedback for the new guardposts.

Keith mentioned he sees raids as something distinct from the "combat" and "support" starships getting changes here.

I've kind of been assuming that Raids are looking at a buff of some sort to deal with the buffed guard posts, but Keith has not said anything yet, mostly because of everything going on with all the other starships at the moment.

Of course, my crystal ball is cloudy at the best of times.....

D.

[keith.lamothe]

So, the only change for the Raid Starship is that it now has a MKIV? Nothing else has changed?

My assumption is that the Raid Starship is waiting on feedback for the new guardposts.

Keith mentioned he sees raids as something distinct from the "combat" and "support" starships getting changes here.

I've kind of been assuming that Raids are looking at a buff of some sort to deal with the buffed guard posts, but Keith has not said anything yet, mostly because of everything going on with all the other starships at the moment.

Of course, my crystal ball is cloudy at the best of times.....

D.

You basically got it.  I don't have a clear read on how the guard post change impacted them, so I'm leaving them more or less as-is.  Though if you go to mkIII with them and get an ASC, and/or get a Raid Fab... well, I don't think those guard posts will be very happy.

Changes look great Keith

*Spider Sense* Suspicious behavior detected. Ambush imminent.

[TechSY730]

Changes look great Keith

*Spider Sense* Suspicious behavior detected. Ambush imminent.

...
Oh yea,
the AI gets these new starships too, right? Including the new Mk. IV and Mk. V varieties?

[Wingflier]

One major complaint I've always heard about Raid Starships (since...ever) is that there is no reason to upgrade them past MKII.

Perhaps if we lowered their Ship Cap to 1, and increased their durability significantly, there would be more of a reason to upgrade them, while hopefully also contributing more to a battle (AKA, not Squishymcdiesinstantly).

Also, with Raid Starships being so specialized, perhaps we could lower the overall Knowledge costs to something like 6500, since they're so useless otherwise.