Author Topic: AI War Beta 6.005 "Burning The Candle At Both Ends" Released!  (Read 25008 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 6.005 "Burning The Candle At Both Ends" Released!
« Reply #90 on: November 04, 2012, 09:06:30 am »
As a quick question, how difficult would fixing the 16-item limit shortcoming be?
Making it a 17-item limit would be easy; making it arbitrarily large would be extremely hard.  Dynamically creating a second button (tab) would be exceedingly painful to implement ;)
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: AI War Beta 6.005 "Burning The Candle At Both Ends" Released!
« Reply #91 on: November 04, 2012, 09:43:45 am »
Wouldn't an 8 HW cap solve the problem too? :)

Offline chemical_art

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Re: AI War Beta 6.005 "Burning The Candle At Both Ends" Released!
« Reply #92 on: November 04, 2012, 09:45:00 am »
If AI has one there's no way to destroy it.
I'm sure you resourceful chaps will figure something out ;)

Fire Limburger Cannons!
I actually had already figured out something but didn't remember it while writing that^^
I could clear the planet with Raid Starships and build a beachhead. Some Sniper Turrets somewhere far away to keep the planet clear. Then I'd build a Mark I<HBCs, B and L Turrets to destroy the Super Fortress. Would be grindy and take long but would work. Would also work vs Fortress King.

You got it (I used the same thing against fortress king)
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: AI War Beta 6.005 "Burning The Candle At Both Ends" Released!
« Reply #93 on: November 04, 2012, 11:27:15 am »
Wouldn't an 8 HW cap solve the problem too? :)
Yeah new people nowadays and their >8 starting homeworld. Everyone knows 8 homeworlds is far too many. (hell, 2 is too many)
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: AI War Beta 6.005 "Burning The Candle At Both Ends" Released!
« Reply #94 on: November 04, 2012, 12:59:43 pm »
I don't know if the it is just randomness or intended, but twice now I've done the three way fight as my first nebula.

The first 33% of the fight involves knocking down the minor starbases, but then last 66% consists of the enemy factions focusing at least 75% of the time on fighting other fleets, rather then making runs against a starbase. The result is a bog down in fighting from the various fleets. That 25% that does go straight for the starbase is my starbase. I haven't seen a run from one enemy attacking the other enemy after they both lose their smaller starbases for now 10 minutes, and I don't like it.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 01:02:52 pm by chemical_art »
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Offline Cinth

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Re: AI War Beta 6.005 "Burning The Candle At Both Ends" Released!
« Reply #95 on: November 04, 2012, 01:10:32 pm »
Wouldn't an 8 HW cap solve the problem too? :)
Yeah new people nowadays and their >8 starting homeworld. Everyone knows 8 homeworlds is far too many. (hell, 2 is too many)

I've been playing multi HW since I found out I could. And that was way before I started to post here.
Opinionated post is opinionated.
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Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: AI War Beta 6.005 "Burning The Candle At Both Ends" Released!
« Reply #96 on: November 04, 2012, 01:32:33 pm »
Opinionated post is opinionated.
Quite so. BUT one should also be aware that multi-HW games breaks the game in many ways :P
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: AI War Beta 6.005 "Burning The Candle At Both Ends" Released!
« Reply #97 on: November 04, 2012, 01:33:03 pm »
Opinionated post is opinionated.
Quite so. BUT one should also be aware that multi-HW games breaks the game in many ways :P

Then all multiplayer games break the game?
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: AI War Beta 6.005 "Burning The Candle At Both Ends" Released!
« Reply #98 on: November 04, 2012, 01:35:33 pm »
By picking two homeworlds, you can build two caps of two bonus ships.

By playing two people, you can build one cap of two bonus ships.

Among other things.

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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 6.005 "Burning The Candle At Both Ends" Released!
« Reply #99 on: November 04, 2012, 01:36:51 pm »
Opinionated post is opinionated.
Quite so. BUT one should also be aware that multi-HW games breaks the game in many ways :P

Then all multiplayer games break the game?
MP is different because it isn't a one-ring-to-rule-them-all situation.  One player with 72 raid starships is a very different thing than 8 players with 9 raid starships each.  Not in numbers, but in practice.

And multi-HW with 2 or 3 (maybe even 4) HWs should be reasonably balanced, but much more than that and it's an option we provide because some players enjoy it rather than an option we can really balance without making things really punishing.
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Offline Cinth

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Re: AI War Beta 6.005 "Burning The Candle At Both Ends" Released!
« Reply #100 on: November 04, 2012, 01:39:25 pm »
Opinionated post is opinionated.
Quite so. BUT one should also be aware that multi-HW games breaks the game in many ways :P

The AI response scales up when you add more HWs. Actually, a lot. The game plays differently this way, sure, but it isn't broken.

I'm sure someone who can manage the units better than I can can beat a 10/10 with 16 HW but, since the last round of buffs to 10s, I haven't beaten it again.

I have crazy amounts of fun pushing AIP. With one HW, I'm not hitting those crazy numbers (those hilarious situations I share here anyway).
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Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline contingencyplan

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Re: AI War Beta 6.005 "Burning The Candle At Both Ends" Released!
« Reply #101 on: November 04, 2012, 03:39:43 pm »
As a quick question, how difficult would fixing the 16-item limit shortcoming be?
Making it a 17-item limit would be easy; making it arbitrarily large would be extremely hard.  Dynamically creating a second button (tab) would be exceedingly painful to implement ;)

Okay, that's what I figured. Though 17 buttons still wouldn't fully solve the problem - 4 (scout + triangle ships) + 16 (starting bonus ships) + 5 (ARS unlocks) = 25 would be necessary.

Opinionated post is opinionated.
Quite so. BUT one should also be aware that multi-HW games breaks the game in many ways :P

Oh, I understand that, but there's a difference between "broken because it is not a balance target and therefore imbalanced" and "broken because of shortcomings of the engine that make ships you've already unlocked disappear." And they will disappear if core shields are on, because the Class-A shields spawn on the ARS worlds, meaning that those worlds must be captured (capturing the ARS) before the final assault on the AI can proceed. The only question is whether that last ship in your list is one you want to keep or not.

If the game permits a setup (16 HWs  in this case), then it should permit it consistently and not break in a non-obvious way.


I don't know if the it is just randomness or intended, but twice now I've done the three way fight as my first nebula.

The first 33% of the fight involves knocking down the minor starbases, but then last 66% consists of the enemy factions focusing at least 75% of the time on fighting other fleets, rather then making runs against a starbase. The result is a bog down in fighting from the various fleets. That 25% that does go straight for the starbase is my starbase. I haven't seen a run from one enemy attacking the other enemy after they both lose their smaller starbases for now 10 minutes, and I don't like it.

I haven't played this scenario enough yet, but my experience is similar. And escorting the ships isn't really an option because
  • By the time the first batch of "conversation partners" has been taken care of, there's another group closer to the base that the Zenith ships will stop to chat with, so they never seem to actually get over to the base.
  • The Zenith suck at killing off the enemy ships, so some will always slip through, putting the Zenith bases in jeopardy, so I can't escort one group all the way without writing off one (or more) of the bases.

I'm not sure how this could be remedied, but at least figured I'd throw in a "me too."

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: AI War Beta 6.005 "Burning The Candle At Both Ends" Released!
« Reply #102 on: November 04, 2012, 05:01:55 pm »
Keith, if it's a problem, could you just have a bonus ship only tab for the space dock for starter-bonus ships and put ARS ones with the triangle ships?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 6.005 "Burning The Candle At Both Ends" Released!
« Reply #103 on: November 04, 2012, 05:12:06 pm »
Keith, if it's a problem, could you just have a bonus ship only tab for the space dock for starter-bonus ships and put ARS ones with the triangle ships?
I could, but that would complicate the interface for everyone, not just multi-HW.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI War Beta 6.005 "Burning The Candle At Both Ends" Released!
« Reply #104 on: November 04, 2012, 05:40:16 pm »
So, the maximum number of homeworlds that can be selected by one player must account for the "worst case" for number of ship options. So in the worst case, this would be 4 (scout + triangle) + N (number of homeworlds) + 5 (ARSs) = 16. So 4+5+N=16, 9+N=16, N=7.
So, to ensure that all ships are visible, the number of homeworlds would have to be capped at 7.

Note that raising the number of buttons to 17 would allow for the old cap of 8 HWs per player to work fine.