AI War Beta 5.091-5.092 "Apply MkII Sanding Machine" Released!

[chemical_art]

On the mil station thing, sure, I can make it knock them 2000 units out of range if that will make it better.

Atm military station is like a MarkI Ion Cannon shooting at MarkV ships. That change alone would make it MarkV IC.

How so?

It makes the enemy targets move 4k further away, and allows its auto targetting to take advantage of its capabilities of trying to disable ships, unlike its current targeting logic of trying to kill ships which it is not suited to at all.

If it is such a big deal, make the command stations range 4k less.

[Hearteater]

"The government has named the extra-terrestrials Ravagers....Are they are friendly galactic neighbors?"

Ok, I'm thinking the government knows something we don't.  And I'm guessing they WON'T turn out to be friendly.  Just a hunch.  I'll continue the video now and see.

[keith.lamothe]

I think his point is that the mil-III station, if it is efficiently using its weapons (never hitting something that's already paralayzed, say, which this change largely accomplishes if it's the only paralyzing player unit on the planet), neutralizes fleet ships at least as well as a mkV ion cannon.

If he meant even the mil-I, I'd disagree in part: those ships will be back in range quite quickly, not like the ion cannon's fairly permanent solution.

In my tests, a mil-III can stop quite a few fleet ships, but I'll leave it to playtesting to say if it's too much.

[Hearteater]

I still think lower caps, 4 and 2 for Mark II and III would be a good idea, just so they can be very strong.

[keith.lamothe]

But if part of the point is to defend satellite worlds, having a cap of 2 on the best ones is a bit counterproductive (particularly since you'll probably want one of them for main defense somewhere).  Which isn't to say there's no value in having to choose which satellite worlds get the best station, but for now I think this is ok.

[chemical_art]

I think his point is that the mil-III station, if it is efficiently using its weapons (never hitting something that's already paralayzed, say, which this change largely accomplishes if it's the only paralyzing player unit on the planet), neutralizes fleet ships at least as well as a mkV ion cannon.

With micro though you can use it very effectively anyway. You are just making it automated.

It would be like saying spider turrets shouldn't target engines automatically, except if you micro'ed it enough it would anyway.

Or having units hitting their multipliers eventually.

[Hearteater]

Military aren't ideal for most Satellite worlds anyway; Warp Jammers are.  And if you consider Mark IIs usable even when Mark III's are unlocked (which they should be) then you can protect 6 total satellite worlds anyway, which is a pretty reasonable chunk.  For most people, only the Advanced Factory world is critical, and if you have one whipping boy, that's both Mark III's right there.  You'd have 4 Mark II's for Fabricators you like.

[Kahuna]

On the mil station thing, sure, I can make it knock them 2000 units out of range if that will make it better.

Atm military station is like a MarkI Ion Cannon shooting at MarkV ships. That change alone would make it MarkV IC.

How so?

It makes the enemy targets move 4k further away, and allows its auto targetting to take advantage of its capabilities of trying to disable ships, unlike its current targeting logic of trying to kill ships which it is not suited to at all.

If it is such a big deal, make the command stations range 4k less.

I have no idea what you just said and I don't think you have any idea what I said.

[Kahuna]

Military aren't ideal for most Satellite worlds anyway; Warp Jammers are.  And if you consider Mark IIs usable even when Mark III's are unlocked (which they should be) then you can protect 6 total satellite worlds anyway, which is a pretty reasonable chunk.  For most people, only the Advanced Factory world is critical, and if you have one whipping boy, that's both Mark III's right there.  You'd have 4 Mark II's for Fabricators you like.

Unfortunatelly CPAs and Exos make Warp Jammers completely useless. You can't protect an Advanced Factory or a Fabrocator with a Warp Jammer. CPAs and Exos will still attack them. You would have to make the Advanced Factory or Fabricator planet one of your whipping boys.. in which case using the Warp Jammer would be pointless. 2 whipping boys is max. 2 whipping boys is a minimum needed to protect your home planet (in most (simple) maps) because CPAs and Exos will go around 1 whipping boy. Sometimes even around 2. This is a problem.

[Kahuna]

Unfortunatelly CPAs and Exos make Warp Jammers completely useless. You can't protect an Advanced Factory or a Fabrocator with a Warp Jammer. CPAs and Exos will still attack them. You would have to make the Advanced Factory or Fabricator planet one of your whipping boys.. in which case using the Warp Jammer would be pointless. 2 whipping boys is max. 2 whipping boys is a minimum needed to protect your home planet (in most (simple) maps) because CPAs and Exos will go around 1 whipping boy. Sometimes even around 2. This is a problem.

^^big problem imo.

Solution:
Make Warp Jammers to "mess" with the AIs so the AIs think the Warp Jammer planet is friendly (like Zenith Miners or a firewall stealthing a port/computer from a hacker). Warp Jammer planets should NOT attract CPAs nor Exos. CPAs and Exos could move trough the planet though so they wouldn't "block" AIs movement. And if they do they would attempt to destroy the player's stuff on that planet. If there are AI ships on a Warp Jammer planet the Warp Jammer would be temporarily disabled. That planet would attract threat, CPAs and Exos just like any other planet as long as there are AI ships on that planet. Also the surrounding AI planets would be on alert as long as the AI ships on the Warp Jammer planet has been destroyed. But before that AI would think that planet is friendly. This way Warp Jammer planets would be safe IF they are located so CPAs and Exos don't go though them. Now Warp Jammers would actually do their job and the player would have to think how position them.

This would make capturing Zenith Power Generators (capturing this would be a disaster unless you're going to make that planet one of your whipping boys), Fabricators (~6 hops away from home planet , Advanced Factories (~6 hops) and (Experimental) Starship Fabricators (~9 hops) a viable option. None of those can be captured and held unless you make that planet one of your whipping boys. You need to make sure that ZPG/Fab/AF/(S)SF planet has defenses so strong you can stop a CPA or an Exo or 2 (without spamming missiles).

..and..

Increase turret energy costs and caps by 50%.
OR
Increase turret energy costs by 50% and add turrets per planet caps.

Change AI wave multipliers so when the player has:
1 planet with hostile wormholes the wave sizes are 105% and time between waves Time*1,04
2 whipping boys: wave sizes 100% and time between waves Time*1
3: wave sizes 95% and time between waves Time*0,96
4: wave sizes 90% and time between waves Time*0,89
5: wave sizes 85% and time between waves Time*0,82
6: wave sizes 80% and time between waves Time*0,75
7: wave sizes 75% and time between waves Time*0,68
and so on..
OR
Change AI wave multipliers so when the player has:
1 planet with hostile wormholes the wave sizes are 105% and time between waves Time*1
2 whipping boys: wave sizes 100% and time between waves Time*1
3: wave sizes 95% and time between waves Time*1
4: wave sizes 92% and time between waves Time*1
5: wave sizes 90% and time between waves Time*1
6: wave sizes 89% and time between waves Time*1
7: wave sizes 89% and time between waves Time*1
and so on..
(planet with hostile wormholes=whipping boy=ingress point)

^^2 ways to tweak turrets and waves = 4 combos. Pick your poison.

This would allow players to have more than 2 whipping boys. Turrets and waves would still be balanced.

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=9729

[rabican]

 You need to make sure that ZPG/Fab/AF/(S)SF planet has defenses so strong you can stop a CPA or an Exo or 2 (without spamming missiles).

err you mean you want automated defenses so strong that they can stop strongest attacks in the game in ... well, all of your planets?

Warp jammers stop attacks on those planets for 95% of the playing time, they are awesome. Use fleet to counter cpas/exos , scout, gate raid, etc.  And yes , sometimes you lose stuff to exos. Tough.

You can already defend 5+ planets from regular attacks with (semi)static defenses only, i really don't see the need for more turrets.

[TechSY730]

You need to make sure that ZPG/Fab/AF/(S)SF planet has defenses so strong you can stop a CPA or an Exo or 2 (without spamming missiles).

err you mean you want automated defenses so strong that they can stop strongest attacks in the game in ... well, all of your planets?

Warp jammers stop attacks on those planets for 95% of the playing time, they are awesome. Use fleet to counter cpas/exos , scout, gate raid, etc.  And yes , sometimes you lose stuff to exos. Tough.

You can already defend 5+ planets from regular attacks with (semi)static defenses only, i really don't see the need for more turrets.

Agreed on the point that because Warp jammers stop the most common form of attack, and also reduce defenses nearby by virtue of not automatically raising adjacent planets on alert, still makes them useful.

The thing with exos though is that even if you have a full cap of ALL marks of turrets of every turret, and fortresses and other dedicated defense stuff, it still wouldn't be enough to stop the more intense but very possible exos before they had time to take out what you are trying to protect. You would have to get your fleet involved too. (This is due, in part, both to the great durability of golems and up, and the command-grade armor of hunter-killers, which almost all turrets have a really nasty .1 multiplier against) And even then, you might not be able to take out the exo in time to save your advanced factories or whatnot if the AI decided to put a huge amount of the exo-points into one big ship (like a high mark hunter/killer).

Now while I support having the AI target your "irreplacibles" like this, defending against such action, with the tools available currently, can be frustrating at times, especially if what you need to defend is a good distance away from your other stuff (like your home).


I don't think switching to a per-planet cap system of turrets completely is the way to go though. I also don't think turrets need a global cap boost. (Though I do think the command-grade multiplier could go up some)


CPAs and large collections of loose threat I don't worry as much about though, especially with the new mini-fortresses. You dedicated defenses can usually deal with these much better, especially if you have some fleet support if things get a bit large.

[chemical_art]

On the mil station thing, sure, I can make it knock them 2000 units out of range if that will make it better.

Atm military station is like a MarkI Ion Cannon shooting at MarkV ships. That change alone would make it MarkV IC.

How so?

It makes the enemy targets move 4k further away, and allows its auto targetting to take advantage of its capabilities of trying to disable ships, unlike its current targeting logic of trying to kill ships which it is not suited to at all.

If it is such a big deal, make the command stations range 4k less.

I have no idea what you just said and I don't think you have any idea what I said.

You said that military stations are currently a MK I ion cannon shooting MK V ships...meaning it is useless, for a MK I cannon doesn't do much of anything except scrape their paint.

But you said if it knocks targets out of its range it's like a MK V cannon, which rapidly kills (not disables) ANY ship not immune to insta kill.

That's kinda a big difference, and I was wondering how they were so different for a 4k difference in knock-back and the targetting logic automatically being used for maximal effectiveness.

[Kahuna]

err you mean you want automated defenses so strong that they can stop strongest attacks in the game in ... well, all of your planets?

No *facepalm*

Use fleet to counter cpas/exos , scout, gate raid, etc.

Try killing a polar bear with a knife.

And yes , sometimes you lose stuff to exos. Tough.

Losing an Advanced Factory is same as losing 3000 knowledge (can't build MarkIVs), AIP increasing by a minimum of 20 losing resources and time without gaining anything except knowledge from researching the planet.
Losing a Zenith Power Generator is same as AIP increasing by a minimum of 30, losing time and resources without gaining anything except knowledge from researching the planet.
I could as well use the first 18000 knowledge to unlock MarkIV Neinzul Enclave Starships.

You can already defend 5+ planets from regular attacks with (semi)static defenses only

On 7 diff yes.

[Kahuna]

You would have to get your fleet involved too.

I know this. I could have wrote some parts more clearly though.

Now while I support having the AI target your "irreplacibles" like this, defending against such action, with the tools available currently, can be frustrating at times, especially if what you need to defend is a good distance away from your other stuff (like your home).

Losing an Advanced Factory is same as losing 3000 knowledge (can't build MarkIVs), AIP increasing by a minimum of 20 losing resources and time without gaining anything except knowledge from researching the planet.
Losing a Zenith Power Generator is same as AIP increasing by a minimum of 30, losing time and resources without gaining anything except knowledge from researching the planet.
I could as well use the first 18000 knowledge to unlock MarkIV Neinzul Enclave Starships.

I don't think switching to a per-planet cap system of turrets completely is the way to go though. I also don't think turrets need a global cap boost. (Though I do think the command-grade multiplier could go up some)

What would be the solution then?

CPAs and large collections of loose threat

Hm. I always have 0 threat and get a 3000 ship CPA.

CPAs and large collections of loose threat I don't worry as much about though, especially with the new mini-fortresses.

Mini-Fortresses wont do anything against 1500-3000 fleet ships and 5-15 all starships.