Author Topic: AI War Beta 5.083 "Core Values" Released!  (Read 8147 times)

Offline Fluffiest

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Re: AI War Beta 5.083 "Core Values" Released!
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2012, 01:23:41 pm »
No matter how awesome the new posts are in defense a CRE can attack planets other than its own.
This is an excellent point. It doesn't matter how scary the new posts are - if it can't result in attacks on the player's planets, it's never going to be as scary as the Core Raid Engine.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 5.083 "Core Values" Released!
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2012, 01:27:17 pm »
No matter how awesome the new posts are in defense a CRE can attack planets other than its own.
This is an excellent point. It doesn't matter how scary the new posts are - if it can't result in attacks on the player's planets, it's never going to be as scary as the Core Raid Engine.
Stopping a player attack on a homeworld causes the game to go on, which includes more attacks.  But yes, it is a good point that there needs to be a threat, and the current impact of "failed homeworld assault" doesn't really have that feeling.  Yet.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: AI War Beta 5.083 "Core Values" Released!
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2012, 03:25:04 pm »
I can't stop laughing at the fireflies.

It's like someone cherry picked my favorite zerg qualities and mixed them into one tidy unit.
Life is short. Have fun.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 5.083 "Core Values" Released!
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2012, 03:49:36 pm »
I can't stop laughing at the fireflies.

It's like someone cherry picked my favorite zerg qualities and mixed them into one tidy unit.
Glad to hear you like them :)

The AI has a much easier time sneaking up on laughing targets
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Offline mithrandi

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Re: AI War Beta 5.083 "Core Values" Released!
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2012, 08:40:42 pm »
I can't stop laughing at the fireflies.

It's like someone cherry picked my favorite zerg qualities and mixed them into one tidy unit.

Since in this game, the AI is using them against me, not me against the AI (I rolled Neinzul Youngling / Neinzul Viral Enthusiast.... wtf), I feel like a terran player in one of the early GSL seasons... except I have 2000 fleet ships to micro, instead of 5 marines :(

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: AI War Beta 5.083 "Core Values" Released!
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2012, 08:45:49 pm »
I can't stop laughing at the fireflies.

It's like someone cherry picked my favorite zerg qualities and mixed them into one tidy unit.

Since in this game, the AI is using them against me, not me against the AI (I rolled Neinzul Youngling / Neinzul Viral Enthusiast.... wtf), I feel like a terran player in one of the early GSL seasons... except I have 2000 fleet ships to micro, instead of 5 marines :(
Congratulations, you now know what it's like to stubbornly play marine-marauder against colossus/baneling.

Offline Soyweiser

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Re: AI War Beta 5.083 "Core Values" Released!
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2012, 09:57:26 am »
Is the sniper shipcap not a bit small (20) compared to the Sentinal frigate (19) the frigate is almost better in every way. (apart from the damage multipliers, but the sentinal does more damage, and fires quicker)

Hmm looking at the wiki they are balanced by the fact that snipers shots hit instantly. Not really impressed by that tbh.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 10:16:07 am by Soyweiser »

Offline Diazo

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Re: AI War Beta 5.083 "Core Values" Released!
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2012, 10:22:11 am »
Question is the sniper shipcap not a bit small (20) compared to the Sentinal frigate (19) the frigate is almost better in every way. (apart from the damage multipliers, but the sentinal does more damage, and fires quicker)

Hmm looking at the wiki they are balanced by the fact that snipers shots hit instantly. Not really impressed by that tbh.

Hey Soy, first time I've seen you so welcome.

* Diazo waves.

First, note that the wiki is out of date. The ship caps for all the fleet ships got redone a couple weeks ago.

Having said that, this exact question came up a couple months ago. If I remember the discussion at the time correctly, the sniper has different attack multipliers that give it a distinct role that is different from the sentinel frigate.

I am not on my gaming computer so I can't check the actual numbers at the moment but that is where I remember the discussion ending up last time around.

D.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 5.083 "Core Values" Released!
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2012, 10:33:35 am »
I won't dismiss out-of-hand the idea that snipers have fallen behind sentinels in the numbers, but looking closely at the numbers I really think most of the "snipers are worse than sentinels" sentiment comes from not understanding the importance of the multipliers.  Considering that snipers get 6x multipliers against light (including fighters), medium, polycrystal (including bombers), and close-combat:  In what circumstances that you really need all your firepower will there not be something you need dead that the snipers can get their max damage against?

When snipers and sentinels are both shooting at targets they're good against, the sniper's cap-dps is twice the sentinel's cap-dps.
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Offline Soyweiser

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Re: AI War Beta 5.083 "Core Values" Released!
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2012, 10:42:45 am »
Hi! yeah, I haven't been around long. Not a regular poster. (I actually looked back at the forum because one of the mantis bug reports I made was accepted :D).

Yeah, the wiki has info that is out of date. But I was comparing them using the ingame stats. The sentinel does do twice the damage the sniper does, and fires 50% faster. So the 6x multipliers (close combat, light, medium and polycrystal 0.1 vs command)  are not that super, compared to the sentinel overall usability. Pulling quick numbers out of my ass, results in the 6x multi being only 2x in general dps. Vs these specific shiptypes. With the sentinel performing a lot better in most other cases.

The sentinel also has a few more immunities and special abilities. The speed difference between the sniper (74) and the frigate (64) is also minor. So while it probably has a different role, I just wasn't that impressed with them.

I also tend to die more from non light,medium,poly ships. So there is that :D (hybrid hives...). But they do help vs the patrol swarms, that is true.

And I probably do not understand all the factors involved.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 10:45:02 am by Soyweiser »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 5.083 "Core Values" Released!
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2012, 11:01:20 am »
results in the 6x multi being only 2x in general dps. Vs these specific shiptypes. With the sentinel performing a lot better in most other cases.
But there again, the question is how often do you really need the firepower, and a target of one of those specific hull types is not available?  Light + Polycrystal covers 2 of the 3 fleet ship types that every AI will have every game.  Medium and Close Combat account for a fair number of types too.  Sure, it's not every ship in the game, but it's a pretty generous set of bonuses.

Quote
I also tend to die more from non light,medium,poly ships. So there is that :D (hybrid hives...). But they do help vs the patrol swarms, that is true.
Yea, Hybrids and other heavy stuff is better tackled with a sentinel, but hybrids generally also bring drones with them, and it's not unlikely that the bombers they bring along are actually more dangerous to your critical targets (i.e., those under forcefields) than the hybrids themselves.

Anyway, my point is that the snipers are 2x better than the sentinels in some pretty important/frequent situations, and the sentinels are better in others.  I assume we're all agreed that it's ok for ships to be better than others in some situations :)  Kinda necessary for the game to be interesting, in fact ;)

If you know you're going up against hybrids and that they'll be your main threat, there are actually much better bonus-picks than sentinel (or sniper, obviously).  Go for something with good multipliers vs structural (for the shields) and heavy (for the hull).
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Offline Diazo

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Re: AI War Beta 5.083 "Core Values" Released!
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2012, 11:01:54 am »
That's one of the nice things about AI War is that when comparing two ships, there are always situations where  one ship is better then the other and vice-versa.

Don't underestimate that bonus against Polycrystal, I think that is the hull type I am most commonly looking for an attack bonus against.

Having said that, the game is always evolving. A long time ago Sentinel Frigates used to have an attack penalty when there was more then one of them present on a planet and they were pretty much used only for their Advanced Warp Sensor ability.

Their damage was adjusted when the attack penalty was removed but their origin as a ship that was intended to be limited to one per system still shows.

Oddly enough, Sentinel Frigates seem to like me. They have been an ARS capture in my last two games while I can't remember the last time I ended up with Snipers. (I generally don't Ship-Hack.)

D.

Offline Soyweiser

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Re: AI War Beta 5.083 "Core Values" Released!
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2012, 11:04:46 am »
Yeah, point taken. 2x bonus is still a lot. Just was a bit underwhelmed. Not an expert in this game in any way, so this explanation helps a lot. Thanks! (Also thanks for taking the time to give detailed responses).

Will have to give snipers more of a try then.

Offline Diazo

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Re: AI War Beta 5.083 "Core Values" Released!
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2012, 11:09:40 am »
Quote from: Patch Notes
  • Removed the wave-calc rule that was preventing more than 1 of a specific starship type from being added; normally it wouldn't make much difference but it was impairing the Spire Hammer, Heroic, Starfleet Commander, and Extreme Raider AIs from scaling up their extra wave components.
  • Made the AI-Type-specific units added to waves (Spire Hammer, Heroic, and Extreme Raider AIs do this) scale up quantity-wise with AIP (based partly on AI Difficulty) as well as wave size, but also scale down with higher-tech-level variants.

Just a note that it looks like this is working correctly. The Heroic AI sent 2 shadow frigates in its last wave that got sent my way.

The 2 shadow frigates that got sent from the home system had been hanging around as threat on the warp point and also join in so it made for 4 shadow frigates attacking, actually lost my command station as the shadow frigates focus fire it.

With 4 frigates even a Mk II FF does not last long.

They died shortly thereafter as the turrets were still intact but I'd say it's doing what it is supposed to.

D.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 5.083 "Core Values" Released!
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2012, 11:12:22 am »
Glad to know it worked :)  Yea, heroic was getting stymied a bit by that rule; we'll see how it does in midgame/lategame in general.  It's probably still "early game terror, mid game annoyance".
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