AI War Beta 5.083 "Core Values" Released!

[Diazo]

Ya, I'm not going to go back and replay it, but that first wave at the 10-15 minute mark with the single Shadow Frigate is a terror and this tweak will not have changed that.

We'll see what happens when the shadow destroyers hit. This game is going to cross the Mk II threshold well before I'm in position to attack the AI homeworlds.

D.

[Draco18s]

I'd just like to point out that 2x damage against Light isn't saying much.  Light hulls typically have fewer hitpoints and lower armor values (ditto swarmer and close-combat, although CC can be all over the place).

The only reason to get a bonus versus close-combat is in order to kill vampire claws.  It's the only melee unit that doesn't attrition itself to death and must be WTF-murdered right now this very moment[/i].  Viral shredders can occasionally get out of hand, though typically if they're out-numbered they lose.  Cutlasses are probably the weakest melee unit, though I haven't examined their stats more recently.

[Soyweiser]

I'd just like to point out that 2x damage against Light isn't saying much.  Light hulls typically have fewer hitpoints and lower armor values (ditto swarmer and close-combat, although CC can be all over the place).

The only reason to get a bonus versus close-combat is in order to kill vampire claws.  It's the only melee unit that doesn't attrition itself to death and must be WTF-murdered right now this very moment[/i].  Viral shredders can occasionally get out of hand, though typically if they're out-numbered they lose.  Cutlasses are probably the weakest melee unit, though I haven't examined their stats more recently.

Yeah, I think the polycrystal one is the major one. As bombers wreck your shields.

[TechSY730]

I'd just like to point out that 2x damage against Light isn't saying much.  Light hulls typically have fewer hitpoints and lower armor values (ditto swarmer and close-combat, although CC can be all over the place).

One of the reasons why I having the Ultra-light, Light, Medium, Heavy, and Ultra-Heavy hull types are a, well, a flawed use of the mechanic. If they are typically assigned based on what their name seems to imply they should be (Light generally going to the small, lightly armored (numerically), low HP stuff, heavy to the large, heavily armored (numerically), high HP stuff), then that inherently cheapens how useful multipliers to the lower end of these are, and artificially inflates the value of the higher end of these.
I understand that the intent is to sort of describe how "thick" the armoring of their hulls are, but isn't the numeric armor stat supposed to model this?

Sure, there are some exceptions (Raid starships are an actually pretty durable ship, both HP and numeric armor wise, and are given the Ultra-light armor), but the general pattern holds well enough to cause this "skewing" of usefulness.

EDIT:

Light hulls typically have fewer hitpoints and lower armor values

Fighters are actually pretty durable.

Another good exception.

[keith.lamothe]

Light hulls typically have fewer hitpoints and lower armor values

Fighters are actually pretty durable.

[chemical_art]

The only reason to get a bonus versus close-combat is in order to kill vampire claws.  It's the only melee unit that doesn't attrition itself to death and must be WTF-murdered right now this very moment[/i].  Viral shredders can occasionally get out of hand, though typically if they're out-numbered they lose.  Cutlasses are probably the weakest melee unit, though I haven't examined their stats more recently.

Firstly, vampire claws use refractive, not close combat. Which makes them KO'ed hard by lightning turrets 

From my experence I get this from the melee units:

Cutlasses: Angry hunks of metal. Very many, very cheap, tough and fast.
Shredders: Amazing on defense, a full cap is hard to kill due to multiplying.
Claws: Sneaky. Stomps long range units as they sneak up for the kill. Not a fun unit to fight in small clashes, and inevitably that sometimes happens as they sneak away from the big fight to stir up trouble elsewhere.

All melee units act as force multipliers for different reasons. Cutlasses absorb damage and ignore immunities that plague other melee units as they smash large units. Shredders and claws are on the other end of the scale, needing other units to help shield them as they maximizing their differing regenerative effects to keep fighting.

[Draco18s]

Light hulls typically have fewer hitpoints and lower armor values

Fighters are actually pretty durable.

I did say "typically"

Firstly, vampire claws use refractive, not close combat. Which makes them KO'ed hard by lightning turrets 

Touche!

From my experence I get this from the melee units:

Cutlasses: Angry hunks of metal. Very many, very cheap, tough and fast.
Shredders: Amazing on defense, a full cap is hard to kill due to multiplying.
Claws: Sneaky. Stomps long range units as they sneak up for the kill. Not a fun unit to fight in small clashes, and inevitably that sometimes happens as they sneak away from the big fight to stir up trouble elsewhere.

Cutlasses: only true on the player end :p on the AI end, the AI has infinite resources, so "cheap" doesn't mean much.
As for claws: FOUR vampire claws are dangerous, as your ships tend towards prioritizing other things and don't even give the vampire claw a second look (the vampires will them om nom through a fleet).

All melee units act as force multipliers for different reasons. Cutlasses absorb damage and ignore immunities that plague other melee units as they smash large units. Shredders and claws are on the other end of the scale, needing other units to help shield them as they maximizing their differing regenerative effects to keep fighting.

While true, my point was that generally speaking one doesn't need multipliers against them.

[TechSY730]

All melee units act as force multipliers for different reasons. Cutlasses absorb damage and ignore immunities that plague other melee units as they smash large units. Shredders and claws are on the other end of the scale, needing other units to help shield them as they maximizing their differing regenerative effects to keep fighting.

While true, my point was that generally speaking one doesn't need multipliers against them.

Melee units are sort of odd. They are pretty much forgettable (especially because you can tend to kill them off, bonuses or not, before they can do anything), but if they do reach something important, you will be scrambling for anything that can deal with them effectively. It's a high risk, high reward type thing.

Sadly, the AI does not really know how to use them well, or use some of the ships they come with to help them out (like, for example, emphasizing taking out gravity stuff if there are melee units nearby stuck in it). Thus, this makes the risk on the AI side even higher without any real increase in reward.

[chemical_art]

Cutlasses: only true on the player end :p on the AI end, the AI has infinite resources, so "cheap" doesn't mean much.
As for claws: FOUR vampire claws are dangerous, as your ships tend towards prioritizing other things and don't even give the vampire claw a second look (the vampires will them om nom through a fleet).

True enough, but caps still count: For every 1 claw there are 4 cutlasses, and for 1 shredder there are 2 cutlasses. They are much tougher as well, with around 3.5x cap health of claws and around 1.8x the health of shredders.

While true, my point was that generally speaking one doesn't need multipliers against them.

I was using force multipliers in the sense of "alone they are ok, but they are expodentially more effective with other unit types."

[chemical_art]

All melee units act as force multipliers for different reasons. Cutlasses absorb damage and ignore immunities that plague other melee units as they smash large units. Shredders and claws are on the other end of the scale, needing other units to help shield them as they maximizing their differing regenerative effects to keep fighting.

While true, my point was that generally speaking one doesn't need multipliers against them.

...

Thus, this makes the risk on the AI side even higher without any real increase in reward.

Rewards tend to be higher too, as the reports of players losing comm stations / factories / fabricators under shields to melee units they forgot about  hurt more then hitting that ai guardpost under shields.

[keith.lamothe]

New one

[Draco18s]

True enough, but caps still count: For every 1 claw there are 4 cutlasses, and for 1 shredder there are 2 cutlasses. They are much tougher as well, with around 3.5x cap health of claws and around 1.8x the health of shredders.

Eh, I still feel as I'd rather have vampires over cutlasses any day.
(Though I'd take shredders over both)

[KDR_11k]

A long time ago Sentinel Frigates used to have an attack penalty when there was more then one of them present on a planet and they were pretty much used only for their Advanced Warp Sensor ability.

I liked them even back then but that malus was really clunky to deal with.