AI War Beta 5.080-5.082 "Bonus Round" Released!

[mithrandi]

My Hulu queue is going to hate you now. But I am certainly a lot happier. I doubt that 4x the number of ships will be that much harder to stop.

Well. The number of ships is certainly a *lot* harder to defend when you're working with only a single planet and fleet ships. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but depending on your play style, you may feel the burn.

EDIT: A *lot* harder as in I just got completely obliterated by the AI. I ended up abandoning that game anyway, since I had just started it, and I wanted to play with the new toys

I should note that it's not really 4x the number of ships; the total number of ships spawned should be the same. The difference is that if you were killing off each strikeforce before the next batch spawned, then you wouldn't be having too many ships piling up; but now, they might be (or might not be, depending on your force levels) spawning faster than you kill them, so they start to pile up and then overwhelm you... exactly what the multiplier is on how many ships build up depends on how fast you can kill them, so it might be far more than 4x, or far less.

[orzelek]

You might want to take a look at these:

Code: [Select]

9/15/2012 11:24:33 PM (5.080) Mem: 144,420,864 Plat:WindowsPlayer
-----------------------------------UnhandledErrors-----------------------------------
9/15/2012 11:24:33 PM (5.080)
-----------------------------------Error-----------------------------------Log String: Update: System.ArgumentOutOfRangeException: Argument is out of range.
Parameter name: index
  at System.Collections.Generic.List`1[GameButton[]].get_Item (Int32 index) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.DoTypeClicked (Boolean IsLeftClick, Boolean IsPlayerClick) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.EnableType () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.set_IsEnabled (Boolean value) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at Game.DrawGame () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at Game.UpdateDisplay (Boolean IsFullVisualUpdate) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at MainCameraLogic.MainUpdateLogic () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
Stack Trace:   at System.Collections.Generic.List`1[GameButton[]].get_Item (Int32 index) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.DoTypeClicked (Boolean IsLeftClick, Boolean IsPlayerClick) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.EnableType () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.set_IsEnabled (Boolean value) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at Game.DrawGame () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at Game.UpdateDisplay (Boolean IsFullVisualUpdate) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at MainCameraLogic.MainUpdateLogic () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0


9/15/2012 11:37:43 PM (5.080) Mem: 224,006,144 Plat:WindowsPlayer
-----------------------------------UnhandledErrors-----------------------------------
9/15/2012 11:37:43 PM (5.080)
-----------------------------------Error-----------------------------------Log String: Update: System.ArgumentOutOfRangeException: Argument is out of range.
Parameter name: index
  at System.Collections.Generic.List`1[GameButton[]].get_Item (Int32 index) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.DoTypeClicked (Boolean IsLeftClick, Boolean IsPlayerClick) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.EnableType () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.set_IsEnabled (Boolean value) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at Game.DrawGame () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at Game.UpdateDisplay (Boolean IsFullVisualUpdate) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at MainCameraLogic.MainUpdateLogic () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
Stack Trace:   at System.Collections.Generic.List`1[GameButton[]].get_Item (Int32 index) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.DoTypeClicked (Boolean IsLeftClick, Boolean IsPlayerClick) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.EnableType () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.set_IsEnabled (Boolean value) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at Game.DrawGame () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at Game.UpdateDisplay (Boolean IsFullVisualUpdate) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at MainCameraLogic.MainUpdateLogic () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

They appeared always few times when I selected mods tab on champion - no longer showing.

[keith.lamothe]

You might want to take a look at these:

Code: [Select]

9/15/2012 11:24:33 PM (5.080) Mem: 144,420,864 Plat:WindowsPlayer
-----------------------------------UnhandledErrors-----------------------------------
9/15/2012 11:24:33 PM (5.080)
-----------------------------------Error-----------------------------------Log String: Update: System.ArgumentOutOfRangeException: Argument is out of range.
Parameter name: index
  at System.Collections.Generic.List`1[GameButton[]].get_Item (Int32 index) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.DoTypeClicked (Boolean IsLeftClick, Boolean IsPlayerClick) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.EnableType () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.set_IsEnabled (Boolean value) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at Game.DrawGame () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at Game.UpdateDisplay (Boolean IsFullVisualUpdate) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at MainCameraLogic.MainUpdateLogic () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
Stack Trace:   at System.Collections.Generic.List`1[GameButton[]].get_Item (Int32 index) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.DoTypeClicked (Boolean IsLeftClick, Boolean IsPlayerClick) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.EnableType () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.set_IsEnabled (Boolean value) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at Game.DrawGame () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at Game.UpdateDisplay (Boolean IsFullVisualUpdate) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at MainCameraLogic.MainUpdateLogic () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0


9/15/2012 11:37:43 PM (5.080) Mem: 224,006,144 Plat:WindowsPlayer
-----------------------------------UnhandledErrors-----------------------------------
9/15/2012 11:37:43 PM (5.080)
-----------------------------------Error-----------------------------------Log String: Update: System.ArgumentOutOfRangeException: Argument is out of range.
Parameter name: index
  at System.Collections.Generic.List`1[GameButton[]].get_Item (Int32 index) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.DoTypeClicked (Boolean IsLeftClick, Boolean IsPlayerClick) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.EnableType () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.set_IsEnabled (Boolean value) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at Game.DrawGame () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at Game.UpdateDisplay (Boolean IsFullVisualUpdate) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at MainCameraLogic.MainUpdateLogic () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
Stack Trace:   at System.Collections.Generic.List`1[GameButton[]].get_Item (Int32 index) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.DoTypeClicked (Boolean IsLeftClick, Boolean IsPlayerClick) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.EnableType () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at GameButton.set_IsEnabled (Boolean value) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at Game.DrawGame () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at Game.UpdateDisplay (Boolean IsFullVisualUpdate) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at MainCameraLogic.MainUpdateLogic () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

They appeared always few times when I selected mods tab on champion - no longer showing.

Hmm, I can't reproduce it with a new game with a champion.  I can guess what might be doing it but it's just a guess.  Do you have a save where it can be reproduced, even if it takes a few tries to reproduce it?

[Faulty Logic]

I am glad you nerfed the Zenith Nightmare Engines (by quite a bit more than I expected, actually).

Happy to hear about the Shard changes.

And can't wait to try out the corvettes.

[keith.lamothe]

I am glad you nerfed the Zenith Nightmare Engines (by quite a bit more than I expected, actually).

I had intended to just bump their health down and adjust the rate-of-fire while maintaining dps.

Then I realized the mkI had a 720k _base_ cap-dps.  For reference, about the highest cap-dps among fleet mkI ships against an ideal target is something like 500k (for vultures against stuff at 10% or lower health, or polarizers against really high armor stuff).

And the siege engines have 10x mulltipliers, meaning their best-case dps was 7.2 million.

And that doesn't get into the aoe/splash damage.

I suspect I had just added a zero where I shouldn't have.  I didn't nerf it to 1/10, just 1/4, but we'll see how it goes.

[chemical_art]

I am glad you nerfed the Zenith Nightmare Engines (by quite a bit more than I expected, actually).

I had intended to just bump their health down and adjust the rate-of-fire while maintaining dps.

Then I realized the mkI had a 720k _base_ cap-dps.  For reference, about the highest cap-dps among fleet mkI ships against an ideal target is something like 500k (for vultures against stuff at 10% or lower health, or polarizers against really high armor stuff).

And the siege engines have 10x mulltipliers, meaning their best-case dps was 7.2 million.

And that doesn't get into the aoe/splash damage.

I suspect I had just added a zero where I shouldn't have.  I didn't nerf it to 1/10, just 1/4, but we'll see how it goes.

While this is true, internally siege engines suffer from a very unique mechanic in ai wars: they can't shoot and scoot. Combine this with low caps and nerfed health and you have a very, very situational thing. Even if you moved their mechanics so they follow the heavy bomber starships' "can only hit big things" mechanic, I feel their dps was closer to right then wrong.

In other words, I think the sieges should maintain keep their lower dps, but maintain higher multipliers against the few things they hit well against.

It depends on what you want them to be, actually. I hear about how blobs should be nerfed, but with the lowering of multipliers you are making them well suited to blobing. If you give them an even lower dps, but higher multipliers, you make more suited to sieging certain defenses.

What you want them to do is up to do, but by nerfing their multipliers and then their base dps (although both got nerfed fairly hard) you encourage them for general blobs rather then sieges.

[The above statements may not make sense. Please comment but withhold final judgment for 24 hours please.]

[Faulty Logic]

In defence of their nerf:

With the old stats, they made the game not fun. The AI had them, so even moderate sized threatballs required huge fleets. Anything else died instantly, without killing any of the blasted things. And their dps, once it activates (which only takes ten seconds now) is still the highest of any fleetship. No fleetship, under any sane circumstances, should beat a spire capital fleet. These... did.

[Diazo]

I have siege engines in my current game but I have not yet updated to 5.080 so I have not seen their nerfed state yet.

Siege Engines are useless in the blob due to their setup time so I use them on their own with cloakers.

I did find them useful because I could sneak them in under cloak and one-shot a guard post with them. I would then lose a few siege engines to the AI's response as they ran away but I figured it was worth the trade, especially as I could take a cap of Mk I and Mk II siege engies and destroy a Mk IV guard post this way, even 3 or 4 guard posts per run (well, not in a Mk IV system) after losing a few siege engines per guard post destroyed.

If the damage has dropped enough that I can no longer one-shot guard posts, much less higher value targets, I'm not sure these are worth it. Because of their setup time and long reload they are an artillery piece. However, without the long range of the bombards they are not out of range of most return fire so they die (or mostly die) before they get a second salvo off if I leave them stationary and don't retreat after that first salvo.

So, if they can't kill their target in a single salvo their usefulness is going drop through the floor. They either run away to survive and so never fire a second shot due to the setup time mechanic or they stay in place and die before they can get a second salvo off.

As soon as I load the game up again I'll patch to the latest version and try the nerfed version of the siege engines but it was already micro-heavy to use them as they were so these nerfs may make them not worth using I'm afraid.

I can see how their mechanic would make them very powerful on defence and so overpowered in the AI hands. I will enjoy them in that role even if their nerfs make them not worth it on the offense but for a fleet ship to be useful to the players they have to be offensively capable, we can't really afford bonus ship purely for defensive purposes. (At least in my opinion.)

More detailed thoughts once I actually play with the nerfed siege engines, hopefully tomorrow.

D.

[Lancefighter]

I think they are trying to fill an anti-structure niche that I'm not sure exists? keep in mind, I have only seem them in the ai's hands..

But it seems they would be best suited to sitting around a wormhole playing poker until something came through that they can shoot. Problem is that the main targets (buildings) dont usually go through wormholes. Usually. I dont really see them as having enough range to contest buildings safely (fortresses or just general forcefields).

I could maybe see them as really strong anti-hybrid defense? good at killing some spirecraft or starships I guess.
I dunno. I dont really see how they actually are fit to be called 'siege' anything, compared to bombards.

Why not give them rail-cannons? Make them a beefed up sniper unit with the same bonuses to buildings? (the idea being you establish a beachhead, and then you get the siege engines to blow stuff up from relative safety)

[KDR_11k]

For comparison, 7.2M DPS is almost as much as a MkI Hunter-Killer against those targets and that's without AOE.

[Irxallis]

I have been using Zenith Siege Engines pre-patch in conjunction with Neinzul Enclave Starships (to create Drone screen) and I have fallen in love with them :-).

When I saw this unit I had two thoughts:
1) Wow, Koenig Monster from Macross came to life!
2) This is exactly what Plasma Siege Starships should have been.

I think they should have been nerfed, though no idea if that hard. Please bear in mind that even if target is in range, manually commanding them to attack what I want them to attack restarts the reloading cycle.

Will check the new version of Siege Engines out probably in a week ;-).

Before, they were simply invaluable fighting golems, fortresses, forcefields and very useful in assisting wave catching.

Attached several things we've done with them:

1) When not attacking, they are mobile turrets. Due to their non-blobability they are perfect in that role.
2) If there is a mass of hybrids, they can be added to a blob of units (as a screen) and they will auto-target those pesky hybrids (only sensible way to use them in a blob I found)
3) Cooperation between Zenith Siege Engines and Neinzul Drones, against an Armored Golem.

Not attached: usual stuff with transports and cloakers ;-). ZSEs countered AI Eyes for me (as I wanted only one strike after decloaking anyway, and that one strike to be awesome).

EDIT:

One more thing - I play a 'Normal' mode, my wife 'Champion' mode. She usually supports my ZSEs with forcefields if necessary. This goes long way to make them even more useful.

[orzelek]

The unhandled exceptions I can't reproduce anymore. I had set of them happen and then nothing.

As for siege engines and their moving when you give attack order - thats a longstanding bug which also hits for example fortress repair counters.

[chemical_art]

Round 2 of me trying to convey my ideas:

As someone else said, if trying to actually siege on offense, their shortish range means they take counter fire before they give their own fire in return.
On defense, they excel.

So right now they are better at being a deployable turret then a siege gun. Having too powerful a gun made the (hard to siege) problem not noticable, but at the cost defense being even stronger.

I think high multipliers and maybe a "can only hit big things" targetting will help against what they are supposed to hit (even if it comes with a second smaller nerf to general dps) is needed to encourage using them to siege rather then be a mobile turret.

[chemical_art]

My math isn't adding up:

Siege engine dps=

Base: 30k * 16 ship cap / 10 second reload = 48k ship cap base dps***
480k base dps * 5 multipliers = 240k specialized dps

Fighter dps:
Base: 4080 * 96 ship cap / 4 second reload = 97,920 dps
97920 * 6 multipliers = 587k specialized dps

***I used the standard dps formula of raw damage / reload speed for dps here, but the siege engine actually doesn't follow that rule. Since it has to reload before it fires the first shot, its dps is actually significantly less at the start of a fight.

I think the weakened dps is to the tune of:
(xn - n) / n where x is the number of 10 second intervals, rounded down, and n being the dps of the craft. (I'm sure I botched this number).

To use words: If a fight lasts 25 seconds, then a attacking siege gun fires twice, but a missile frigate fires three times. This is because all craft but the siege gun gets an opening salvo, but the siege gun does not.


This is not to even begin that right now in my game the siege engine does less damage then the fighter by less then half.

[Eternaly_Lost]

My math isn't adding up:

Siege engine dps=

Base: 30k * 16 ship cap / 10 second reload = 48k ship cap base dps***
480k base dps * 5 multipliers = 240k specialized dps

Fighter dps:
Base: 4080 * 96 ship cap / 4 second reload = 97,920 dps
97920 * 6 multipliers = 587k specialized dps

***I used the standard dps formula of raw damage / reload speed for dps here, but the siege engine actually doesn't follow that rule. Since it has to reload before it fires the first shot, its dps is actually significantly less at the start of a fight.

I think the weakened dps is to the tune of:
(xn - n) / n where x is the number of 10 second intervals, rounded down, and n being the dps of the craft. (I'm sure I botched this number).

To use words: If a fight lasts 25 seconds, then a attacking siege gun fires twice, but a missile frigate fires three times. This is because all craft but the siege gun gets an opening salvo, but the siege gun does not.


This is not to even begin that right now in my game the siege engine does less damage then the fighter by less then half.

What is your game speed setting and Cap scale?

I do agree that those numbers look odd, as I thought Keith was balancing things so that bonus fleet ships were on average against their preferred targets something like 1.5x better then a normal fleet ship. And your numbers said that he missed it by quite a bit.