Author Topic: AI War Beta 5.074-5.075 "Focused Forces" Released!  (Read 12865 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
AI War Beta 5.074-5.075 "Focused Forces" Released!
« on: August 30, 2012, 02:59:58 pm »
(Crossposted from this blog post)

This one includes some key enhancements to the base game we wanted to get in with enough testing time left before 6.0.

Players have been telling us for a while that the AI's Special Forces units were basically... irrelevant.  They used to be far more significant but many changes over the years have resulted in a mechanic that just doesn't make a lot of difference in most games.  So we rewired it.

Now the galaxy's AI Special Forces will act as a sort of defensive response force, pushing back whenever you attack a planet the AI cares about (which is not all of them).  In testing this produced a pretty cool feeling of maneuver and counter-maneuver, but as always we'll really see if it works out when the players get their hands on it.  I think it's a step in the right direction, at least.

Speaking of AI defense, here's another thing the players have been asking for: now each AI planet picks three typs of ships to "focus" on when spawning reinforcements.  In one sense this reduces the distinct number of ships you're likely to encounter in large numbers in the midgame (in the early game they still start with the same distribution as before), but actually increases the gameplay variety as each planet's mix will be different.

Mere balance changes seem mundane compared to mechanics changes like the above, but there are some pretty important ones to starships and the triangle: The six "combat" starship lines have been given another balance pass.  K costs are now more in line with what you're getting, notably.  And the fighter is now faster than the bomber was (and the bomber slightly slower) and has more of a role on the attack due to several guardians being switched to hull types that are vulnerable to the fighter.  All in all, none of the balance changes are earthshaking, but they're one more step in the right direction.

The release has a couple bugfixes, as well.

Update: 5.075 hotfix is out to fix an array-index-out-of-bounds error in what I did to the AI reinforcements logic.  Also made the focused-reinforcements logic apply to initial ship seeding, which should make at least one player happy.

Enjoy!

This is a standard update that you can download through the  in-game updater itself, if you already have 4.000 or later. When you launch the game, you'll see the notice of the update having been found if you're connected to the Internet at the time.  If you don't have 4.000 or later, you can download that here.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 09:41:08 pm by keith.lamothe »
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Lancefighter

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,440
Re: AI War Beta 5.074 "Focused Forces" Released!
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2012, 03:17:34 pm »
Wheee starships~

\o/

Anyway, you maybe up for a game this weekend keith? Would still really like to just get a bunch of people together and let them champion around  8)
Ideas? Suggestions? Concerns? Bugs to be squashed? Report them on the Mantis Bugtracker!

Author of the Dyson Project and the Spire Gambit

Offline chemical_art

  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Fabulous
Re: AI War Beta 5.074 "Focused Forces" Released!
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2012, 03:40:37 pm »
Will be sure to test a "value-based mixed fleet" approach some time in the future.

The goal: To not research any nondefense units past MK II.

Life is short. Have fun.

Offline LaughingThesaurus

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,723
Re: AI War Beta 5.074 "Focused Forces" Released!
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2012, 04:00:56 pm »
I'd love to get my hands on a computer to get my hands on this soon. Update looks more awesome than usual. Well, at least on paper, so far. ;)

Offline Martyn van Buren

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 642
Re: AI War Beta 5.074 "Focused Forces" Released!
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2012, 04:05:19 pm »
Hooray!  This looks fantastic; can't wait to try a new game.  So of course it comes out an hour before I go to the airport to leave town for a week :|

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: AI War Beta 5.074 "Focused Forces" Released!
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2012, 04:11:30 pm »
Hooray!  This looks fantastic; can't wait to try a new game.  So of course it comes out an hour before I go to the airport to leave town for a week :|

Probably for the best. 5.075 is going to put similar reinforcement "focus" changes to the game seeding process. If you are going to start a new game, it might be worthwhile to wait just a bit longer. ;)

Offline Faulty Logic

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,194
  • Bane of the AI
Re: AI War Beta 5.074 "Focused Forces" Released!
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2012, 06:55:58 pm »
I like everything but the starship energy/cost (m+c, not k) change. That they were really cheap in energy was one of the main draws of starships since I started playing (4.000). Also, it caused an instant energy brownout upon reload. I also dislike increasing their costs again; they seem a little exorbitant now. However, now that I can unlock the mkII fleet for a reasonable cost, it may be justified.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 06:58:43 pm by Faulty Logic »
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: AI War Beta 5.074 "Focused Forces" Released!
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2012, 07:02:38 pm »
Econ's a lot easier to come by than it was in 5.0, and that's one reason I wasn't bashful with the m+c and e costs.  I do think starships need to have the same K/usefulness ratio as fleet ships because knowledge is so critically important a resource, but I think it's fine that they have a substantially worse m,c,e/usefulness ratio because they are generally much easier to keep alive.  It also serves as a motivation to support the starships so it isn't just "make starship blob" -> "cruise and kill".  Depending on your econ you might still be able to manage that, but it hurts more.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Faulty Logic

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,194
  • Bane of the AI
Re: AI War Beta 5.074 "Focused Forces" Released!
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2012, 07:07:42 pm »
A lot of that econ assumption rests on burning 9000 k on harvester upgrades/ econ IIIs. It seems like you are making them mandatory, and the econ pain is compounded when you are running ultra-low AIP (fewer harvesters, less k to burn on them).
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline chemical_art

  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Fabulous
Re: AI War Beta 5.074 "Focused Forces" Released!
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2012, 07:15:05 pm »
I will say that the econ boosts are true for larger games where one takes over 8 planets.

However, for those who run with less then 5 planets  energy and resources are tight, and if extra factions like golems, spirecraft, forts, or fallen spire are used energy and resources can noticed up to 8 planets. Somewhere between 6 - 8 planets the increase in power from K is outpaced by the linear gains in energy, and it is then that the lack of "cost" for energy becomes powerful. For players, between 6 - 8 planets if economic upgrades are pursued then resources become less of a concern.

To puruse this more broadly, the changes to energy being free makes "large" empires much stronger, but the effect on small ones aren't quite so noticeable to the player. Saving ~100 / sec-ish resources for one planet is somewhat  noticable, Saving ~1000ish resources for 10 planets is very noticeable.

Is this intended behavior? It could very well be.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 07:19:00 pm by chemical_art »
Life is short. Have fun.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: AI War Beta 5.074 "Focused Forces" Released!
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2012, 08:09:25 pm »
The energy changes make econ a lot easier even if you spend no K on econ/harvester, which is mainly what I meant.  The harvesters are definitely an option too.  I'd say that you probably have to invest in some econ upgrades or not go ultra-low-AIP (i.e. take some planets) to go starship-heavy, but not just for mixing some starships in.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Volatar

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,055
  • Patient as a rock
Re: AI War Beta 5.074 "Focused Forces" Released!
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2012, 09:16:44 pm »
Remember that small empires is a bad thing as far as the basic game design of AI War is concerned. From a design standpoint you want to push the player to take more planets, and thus draw more AIP upon themselves.

So, with that in mind, I see no problem in penalizing those with small empires.

Offline orzelek

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,096
Re: AI War Beta 5.074 "Focused Forces" Released!
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2012, 09:17:31 pm »
A lot of that econ assumption rests on burning 9000 k on harvester upgrades/ econ IIIs. It seems like you are making them mandatory, and the econ pain is compounded when you are running ultra-low AIP (fewer harvesters, less k to burn on them).

I found out that playing without econ upgrades is a bit more viable recently but this maybe a champion effect - playing around more with champion less with rest. For a change you have energy issues now - I may caused this by going low AIP way (sledgehammer and bully mean AIP hurts but flying around their planets with champion is easy). But after I built few fortresses to prepare for exos my power was suddenly not enough and converters are only way to go - and they seem to not give that much power (2 converters per fortress means that each of them costs you 200 m/c per second). So basically it seems that if you want to defend harvester unlocks are needed or you need to be super conservative with starship use. Having champion helps with this for me since I use him to take the beating often :D

Offline Volatar

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,055
  • Patient as a rock
Re: AI War Beta 5.074 "Focused Forces" Released!
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2012, 09:25:14 pm »
Just realized another thing with the expansions logo that has been bothering me but I couldn't put my finger on it.

Take a look at how all the expansion logos are displayed.



All of them have a shadow, except for Ancient Shadows. (The irony of this has only been realized after typing it out.)

(Light of the Spire has only a very slight shadow, but this fits perfectly with the glow.)

Offline Lancefighter

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,440
Re: AI War Beta 5.074 "Focused Forces" Released!
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2012, 09:26:36 pm »
The Ancient Shadows has no shadow you say....
Ideas? Suggestions? Concerns? Bugs to be squashed? Report them on the Mantis Bugtracker!

Author of the Dyson Project and the Spire Gambit