Poll

What should be done with special forces?

Leave them as is (don't vote for others)
2 (0.9%)
Remove them entirely
1 (0.4%)
Remove their AIP
18 (7.9%)
Make them higher-mark
9 (3.9%)
Make them blob up more
11 (4.8%)
Let them recruit (free) normal ships
15 (6.6%)
Allow them to aid defence
20 (8.8%)
Increase their spawn rate
10 (4.4%)
Have them wait to join other attacks
15 (6.6%)
Have them attack/defend if AIHW attack
15 (6.6%)
Give them unique (for the AI) abilities
14 (6.1%)
Allow them to launch Special Forces waves
14 (6.1%)
Let Starships/guardians join them
13 (5.7%)
Increase their initial numbers
11 (4.8%)
Other (please post below, will add )
3 (1.3%)
Advanced pathfinding (via neutral worlds)
14 (6.1%)
Raiding behavior (attack, retreat, annoy)
18 (7.9%)
Form starship/escort fleets
9 (3.9%)
Launch mini-exo waves
6 (2.6%)
Let them bypass chokes somehow
5 (2.2%)
Prefer low-cap ships
3 (1.3%)
Remove patrolling behavior
1 (0.4%)
Make them defence-only
1 (0.4%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Author Topic: Poll: What should be done with special forces?  (Read 12008 times)

Offline Martyn van Buren

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Re: Poll: What should be done with special forces?
« Reply #75 on: August 29, 2012, 09:59:35 pm »
Cool!  I am very excited to see the new defense behavior in action.  And to throw some new and improved starships at it.

Offline Kahuna

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Re: Poll: What should be done with special forces?
« Reply #76 on: August 30, 2012, 12:10:45 am »
Crossposting from the (still in progress) release notes, since they're basically a response to this thread:

Quote
* AI Special Forces:
** Now get periodic extra spawns (in addition to the usual trickle from reinforcements) if under a "special forces population cap" determined by difficulty, AIP, etc.
*** If you're curious about the math, etc, turn on Advanced Logging and check SpecialForcesLogicLog.txt in your RuntimeData directory after the game has run for a bit.  There's some minor spoilers in there about what ships each AI has, but nothing you probably won't find out looking at a few AI planets anyway.
** Will now rally to defend an AI planet that is under significant attack and at least mildly important (AI Homeworld, core world, or a planet with a CSG, ARS, Advanced Factory, Super Terminal, or Broken Golem on it, giving priority to HWs/core-worlds).
*** Note that once a special forces ship encounters the enemy it loses the special forces flag and acts like a normal threat ship from there on.
** When not rallying to defend a planet, will select a staging planet about 3 hops deep into AI territory and rally there until an eligible AI planet is attacked.
** To prevent a player's first attack from running into several hundred AI ships out for blood, as entertaining as it was during testing, special forces ships are no longer seeded during the initial map seeding.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Poll: What should be done with special forces?
« Reply #77 on: August 30, 2012, 12:15:54 am »
That sounds like an amazing way to die. SUDDENLY THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE in threat. I guess in theory if you could keep it low enough, itd never be relevant?
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Offline Nodor

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Re: Poll: What should be done with special forces?
« Reply #78 on: August 30, 2012, 01:51:34 am »
I always thought the special forces should be "special" - Right now they spawn "basic ships".

I'd like to suggest a minor change.   Instead of "random ships", they always get a particular low cap ship, like Spire Blade Spawners, Tractor Drones, etc.  ... with a limit based on AIP perhaps something like 7.5*Difficulty. 

The idea being if you entered a system with a Spire Blade Spawner Special Forces Guard Post late game, about 500 or so Spire Blade Spawners would be tossing blades at you.   This is a "different" problem - and if each guard post had a different low cap ship in high volumes, you have variety.  And for the record, the answer to that problem is raid starships. 
 
Some caveats:  To make this interesting they would need to lose the "move around" option.    The idea is this guard post has a bunch of badass ships, that defend the planet.  Now, if you set off a special forces Alarm, they should get dropped in a carrier(s) and head for a "target".   Reinforcements for guard posts would need to replace those ships in about 10 minutes to prevent neutering by pulling into a strategically placed whipping boy(s).

Give the Special forces captain 2 of these per system, and you have a variable/difficult AI type.



Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Poll: What should be done with special forces?
« Reply #79 on: August 30, 2012, 02:19:45 am »
Added "prefer low-cap ships"
Added "remove patrolling behavior"

To whoever posted the second "other" (I am assuming that is Nodor), is there another specific option or options you would like me to add?

Having done that, I like SF ships moving around. And 500 SBSs could easily be game-ending.
Nodor, I think that could be another mechanic, but I oppose making SF into that, as most of their function comes from their mobility.

Edit:My hyposthesis that adding new options locks voting was just confirmed. Activate the Keith-signal.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 03:16:18 am by Faulty Logic »
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Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: Poll: What should be done with special forces?
« Reply #80 on: August 30, 2012, 03:53:20 am »
Crossposting from the (still in progress) release notes, since they're basically a response to this thread:

Quote
* AI Special Forces:
** Now get periodic extra spawns (in addition to the usual trickle from reinforcements) if under a "special forces population cap" determined by difficulty, AIP, etc.
*** If you're curious about the math, etc, turn on Advanced Logging and check SpecialForcesLogicLog.txt in your RuntimeData directory after the game has run for a bit.  There's some minor spoilers in there about what ships each AI has, but nothing you probably won't find out looking at a few AI planets anyway.
** Will now rally to defend an AI planet that is under significant attack and at least mildly important (AI Homeworld, core world, or a planet with a CSG, ARS, Advanced Factory, Super Terminal, or Broken Golem on it, giving priority to HWs/core-worlds).
*** Note that once a special forces ship encounters the enemy it loses the special forces flag and acts like a normal threat ship from there on.
** When not rallying to defend a planet, will select a staging planet about 3 hops deep into AI territory and rally there until an eligible AI planet is attacked.
** To prevent a player's first attack from running into several hundred AI ships out for blood, as entertaining as it was during testing, special forces ships are no longer seeded during the initial map seeding.

Cool! Looking forward to testing :)
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Offline Fluffiest

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Re: Poll: What should be done with special forces?
« Reply #81 on: August 30, 2012, 03:53:52 am »
I added an "other" vote, along with Remove their AIP, Make them higher-mark, Allow them to aid defence, Have them attack/defend if AIHW attack, Let Starships/guardians join them, Form starship/escort fleets, and Prefer low-cap ships.

My "other" option is to stop them ever becoming Threat or pathing onto human worlds while patrolling. The way I would like to see Special Forces is as small but powerful roaming wolf-packs of Starships, Guardians and fleet-ship escorts, maybe one mark higher than the wave level, patrolling between SF guard posts. They'll avoid human-controlled systems altogether (I don't really care if they avoid neutral systems or not, but they should probably avoid the Dyson Sphere system). If they path into an AI system that's under attack, they'll join in the defense. If a high-value AI system (or one containing a Special Forces Alarm Post) near a wandering SF patrol comes under attack, the Special Forces will blob up and rally to the defense. If they succeed in killing all the human attackers or chase them off, they could just go straight back to patrolling, or hang around the attacked system for a while in case it gets attacked again, or maybe they could try for a counterattack (the counterattack logic would need to use something like the Threat firepower calculation to make sure you can't easily bait Special Forces into charging into a meat-grinder).

The exact makeup of Special Forces packs - higher-than-average mark numbers, low-cap ships, Starships, and possibly Guardians - is primarily an aesthetic thing, although it's also to make them feel different from the normal fleet-ship defenders. The main focus would be on converting them from something that randomly attacks you (and gets ignored, because it's like a slightly pathetic version of Threat) to something that reacts to what you're doing and might foil one of your attacks every once in a while.

Oh, since Special Forces would never path onto human worlds, there are a few side-effects:
1) Special Forces guard posts ON human worlds should self-destruct, because they're pointless. Because of this, the AIP for SF guard posts should be removed because there's no real way to avoid killing them.
2) If you manage to isolate a Special Forces guard post such that the wolfpacks can't path to another SF post without going through a human world, they'll stop patrolling and just camp the post.
3) It's possible for Special Forces to get completely stuck and unable to path to any SF post at all, possibly because you just killed the last such post. In this case, it's probably OK to release them as Threat.
4) Special Forces Captain goes from from an aggressive to a defensive AI type.
5) Special Forces plus AI Eye is an absolute pain, since the Eye forces you to use small attack fleets while Special Forces turn up and randomly squash small attack fleets.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 04:02:27 am by Valtiel »

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Poll: What should be done with special forces?
« Reply #82 on: August 30, 2012, 04:19:16 am »
Added "make them defence-only"

Mantis suggestion similar to what you proposed, though not special forces per se:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=9137
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Offline Bognor

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Re: Poll: What should be done with special forces?
« Reply #83 on: August 30, 2012, 08:10:44 am »
I'm confused, does this finally give you a reason to destroy the Special Guard Posts on your own planets? Or are they still a minor annoyance?
It does if you don't want enemy ships to spawn on your planet.

Just a second...

Quote from: Prerelease 5.043: A Dubious Honor
Special Forces Guard Posts no longer count as reinforcement-warp-gates . . . They still get reinforcements when their planet is reinforced, and those reinforcements use the special forces behavior, but they can no longer make a planet eligible for reinforcement all by themselves. (link)

?
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Poll: What should be done with special forces?
« Reply #84 on: August 30, 2012, 08:56:04 am »
It means wave reinforcements. The Special Forces GP no longer acts as a wave reinforcer.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Poll: What should be done with special forces?
« Reply #85 on: August 30, 2012, 02:33:09 pm »
FYI, I revised it somewhat, changes in bold:

Quote
* AI Special Forces:
** Now get periodic extra spawns (in addition to the usual trickle from reinforcements) if under a "special forces population cap" determined by difficulty, AIP, etc.
*** The spawns are spread out among all special forces posts (and special forces guardians) in the galaxy, except those in non-AI territory.  Each post in non-AI territory instead increases the special-forces-population-cap by about 5%.  So there's a reason to kill them, in tension with the +1 AIP from killing them.
*** If you're curious about the math, etc, turn on Advanced Logging and check SpecialForcesLogicLog.txt in your RuntimeData directory after the game has run for a bit.  There's some minor spoilers in there about what ships each AI has, but nothing you probably won't find out looking at a few AI planets anyway.
** Will now rally to defend an AI planet that is under significant attack and at least mildly important (AI Homeworld, core world, or a planet with a CSG, ARS, Advanced Factory, Super Terminal, or Broken Golem on it, giving priority to HWs/core-worlds).
** Now keep the special-forces flag even when they have encountered the enemy, so that rallying to a planet does not just dump all the special forces there as normal threat.
** When not rallying to defend a planet, will select a staging planet about 3 hops deep into AI territory and rally there until an eligible AI planet is attacked.
** To prevent a player's first attack from running into several hundred AI ships out for blood, as entertaining as it was during testing, special forces ships are no longer seeded during the initial map seeding.
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