AI War Beta 5.068-5.069 "Old Enmity Reclaimed" Released!

[Toranth]

Having modules not be refundable, having xp be finite, and having the end game of the champion (in the form of what hull it gives and what extra modules I get) makes me very hesitant to actually take advantage of the modules fully, since I don't want to waste very precious xp if they are not going to be useful on my cruiser.

This.  The lowering of the module costs from 14 to 9 XP levels needed to max a module line went a long way towards helping with this problem.  But the uncontrolled hull-type unlocks means that, say, unlocking up the Mk IV Nanosubverters suddenly becomes a really bad decision if everything from then on is Zenith Hull unlocks, and your Neinzul or Human ship is stuck at frigate.  Sure, your wimpy little ship can have the good guns, but they can't go on the only Super-dooper Mega Dreadnaught hull you've got.

Of course, I'm kind of getting the feeling that unlocks and scenarios are *not* completely random.  In which case, the game may be balancing them out and making sure that situation never occurs.

[chemical_art]

Having modules not be refundable, having xp be finite, and having the end game of the champion (in the form of what hull it gives and what extra modules I get) makes me very hesitant to actually take advantage of the modules fully, since I don't want to waste very precious xp if they are not going to be useful on my cruiser.

Bear in mind that the mkI version of any available module (except the missile one, which I might make a gimme anyway, dunno; it helps to have one more thing you can spend the first few points on) is free, so you can try it without paying anything for it.

It's kind of the same situation as most starships: you can try out the mkI, but the higher ones cost knowledge.

But...that's not the issue.

The issue is halfway through the game and I have a destroyer, and I don't know if I will get a nenzul cruiser, and thus picking a shield would be a not so good idea, or if I should invest in a zenith ship, thus another module would be wasted, or if I'll get a human one, and something else won't be good.

Or I don't know if I want to invest in shields because I may get beam cannons, but on the third hand I don't know when I will get beam cannons.

Related to what Toranth says, if I get a nenzul frigate and destroyer, but then get a zenith cruiser, the "value" of the modules switch.

Also, the relations of the randomness of champion vs starships and fleetships are different. Starships and fleetships are independently capped. Meaning if you invest in siege starships you still don't gimp your bomber starships power. If you invest in bombers and suddenly get something you think is better (for me tigers, just as an example here) then you don't have to choose tigers or bombers, you get both. Obviously you cannot get more then one champion, and thus the comparisons don't work.

[keith.lamothe]

I'll probably be taking Shrugging Khan's suggestion and changing the hull unlocks to "unlock race" or "unlock size", so you'd never have a situation where the largest hull you have is from a race you don't like and you have a smaller hull from a race you do like (you might not have a race you like at all, but that's a separate thing).

I kinda like it presenting you with a situation where you have an incentive to use a race-tech-base you don't normally use, but I'm not going to fight all that hard for it

[LaughingThesaurus]

That kind of thing, though, would push it yet more towards 'bonus ship' and further from 'character progression'. Having a whole player devoted to being one fancy bonus ship is not something that sounds popular.

[keith.lamothe]

That kind of thing, though, would push it yet more towards 'bonus ship' and further from 'character progression'. Having a whole player devoted to being one fancy bonus ship is not something that sounds popular.

Ok, so what else do you suggest?

[LaughingThesaurus]

OH.
I meant the idea of just the unlocking individual hull types. I'd be behind the whole 'unlock race' or 'unlock hull size' thing.
I wasn't clear.

Edit: I didn't have a huge problem either way but like I can see how that'd be bothersome. It'd almost be like "Okay, your next character is a tauren. What? You wanted to be a necromancer? Too bad."

[keith.lamothe]

OH.
I meant the idea of just the unlocking individual hull types. I'd be behind the whole 'unlock race' or 'unlock hull size' thing.
I wasn't clear.

As in, those being randomly given as rewards (like "You can now use Neinzul hulls" or "You can now use Destroyer hulls")?  That's what I had in mind.

Or as in, you spend points to unlock a new race and/or a bigger hull?  That's also doable (though I think the race one would stay randomly done), but I imagine nearly everyone's build would be "how fast can I get to the biggest hull?"

[LaughingThesaurus]

Ooh, yeah... I was like, man, getting points would be cool... but that reminds me of those games where you can upgrade your exp gain rate. Like, little flash games with light RPG elements. Why would you do anything other than accelerate your leveling so you can cap it and level stupidly fast later? Why go for the middling ones when there's no incentive for them over the bigger ones?

I'd say the random unlocks idea would be my favorite. By that, I don't mean the
"You unlocked the Neinzul Destroyer. You can now use that OR the Human Frigate."
more of the
"You unlocked Destroyer class shadow vessels! You can now use Destroyers of any race variety you have unlocked."

That first option ends up sort of unlocking like... bonus ship-like options, but you don't feel as in control if you unlocked more classes or races entirely instead. What if your only destroyer was Neinzul and you don't like the Neinzul playstyle for what is potentially the only unit you have for the entire game?

[chemical_art]

I think keeping the 2nd nebula for destroyer and 5th one for a cruiser is fine. Include a "free" random hull type within these limits when a nebula is cleared, and the potential to manually unlock further races.

[Toranth]

I kinda like it presenting you with a situation where you have an incentive to use a race-tech-base you don't normally use, but I'm not going to fight all that hard for it

I think you've already started doing an fine job of that by specializing the base hulls and the modules they can carry.  The Neinzul cruiser, with 4 MiniBomber Modules, was great for raiding AI systems, clearing out Tachyon guardians or other high-value targets.  But when I needed support to defend against a badly-timed double wave, I had to switch them back to the Zenith for the shields and additional weapon slots (even if it does now move slower).  The XP limits prevent getting everything you might ever want, but it can still allow you to choose what to specialize in.

I'm really looking forward to the larger hulls and seeing what they'll bring to the table.  Four unique hull-lines to choose from could certainly lead to some interesting choices.

OH.
I meant the idea of just the unlocking individual hull types. I'd be behind the whole 'unlock race' or 'unlock hull size' thing.
I wasn't clear.

As in, those being randomly given as rewards (like "You can now use Neinzul hulls" or "You can now use Destroyer hulls")?  That's what I had in mind.

Or as in, you spend points to unlock a new race and/or a bigger hull?  That's also doable (though I think the race one would stay randomly done), but I imagine nearly everyone's build would be "how fast can I get to the biggest hull?"

Hmm, that's an interesting thought.  Would you use XP to unlock?  A different set of points, given by completing scenarios?  Would module lines be incuded, or would they still come randomly?
If each scenario gave a small fixed number of unlock points, and unlocking hull-types or module lines all took points...
For example, if the first scenario gave 3 unlock points, then the player could, say, unlock the Destroyer hull for 2 points and Translocators Mk I for 1 point.  Or unlock 3 module Mk Is.  But to unlocking the Cruiser would take all 3 points.  Unlocking a Battleship hull, at 4 points, would require saving up a bit from the earlier scenarios.  XP could still be used to unlock Mk II-V of the modules.
Or would having multiple unlock point types make it "too complicated"?  But using XP would either make it too difficult to unlock anything else (if the hulls were expensive) or too easy (if they weren't - just grind the first scenario or two, then jump straight to Mega Dreadnaughts).
Maybe use Knowledge instead?  make some artifacts (like the FS Shards) that need to be brought to a homeworld and used to create a Champion Research Center, where K could unlock stuff.

[Shrugging Khan]

Actually, one more suggestion - instead of making the Player accumulate XP, which lead to Level UPs, which then provide module unlock points - how about simply using XPs to unlock new modules? That way, you eliminate some unnecessary interface spam and you can have more fine-grain differences in module pricing, too.

PS: This might be a very bad idea, but how about just replacing XP with knowledge? Cap the amount of the K-Reward for nebula ships destroyed, keep the rewards for AI Guard Posts and Command Stations very low, and it shouldn't go out of hand. But you give the player the option of stalling Champion development in favour of the standard fleet, or to divert resources from the fleet to the Champion.

[Nodor]

Actually, one more suggestion - instead of making the Player accumulate XP, which lead to Level UPs, which then provide module unlock points - how about simply using XPs to unlock new modules? That way, you eliminate some unnecessary interface spam and you can have more fine-grain differences in module pricing, too.

PS: This might be a very bad idea, but how about just replacing XP with knowledge? Cap the amount of the K-Reward for nebula ships destroyed, keep the rewards for AI Guard Posts and Command Stations very low, and it shouldn't go out of hand. But you give the player the option of stalling Champion development in favour of the standard fleet, or to divert resources from the fleet to the Champion.

I like the idea of XP as knowledge pool.  It will allow for more granular balancing of Champion Upgrades. 

As for base hull types: Is there a reason we can't select a base champion type Human, Nienzul, Spire etc. in the game setup?  That way the player has the base hull type they want (they might even come with different default module loadouts) and the champions would play differently. 

One of the challenges I am noticing is that there are more shiny objects (module upgrades, hulls etc.) than convenient ways to get them.  I like that it is not possible to have all of the options at once.  But I think it's important for a player to feel like they can get what they want, even if it's not everything.  (Much like knowledge and tech in the base game... 10K knowledge doesn't buy everything, but you can get something you want.)

[TechSY730]

About the upcoming Zenith Reprocessor, two concerns.
One, what if they are in AI hands? The AI already has what is effectively infinite resources. They wouldn't get anything from the "gimmick" of this ship; it would be hilarously underpowered/near pointless in their hands unless the gimmick works differently for player types that don't use resources.
Two, the current economic model means that you usually aren't tight on cash, or if you are tight on cash, you usually aren't in a place to attack or be attacked (or be likely to, as a common reason for being low on resources is a heavy attack from the AI, and now you are rebuilding and the AI probably won't send you another attack for a while), thus making their gimmick not all that useful in the few situations you might want to use it.

Of course, for concern 2, it will be hard to tell without seeing how the balance of the ships are. Maybe they are good fighters in their own right (aka, a good pick even if they didn't have their gimmick), IDK.

[Hearteater]

I think'll they be ok in AI hands since it doesn't care about caps as much, so I don't really think it needs to get anything out of the special ability.  Although I suppose it could "create" reinforcements (short of like a Regenerator golem) with the m+c it reprocesses.  I'm wondering if on the player side it will allow for less Economy-focused K picks.

[keith.lamothe]

The reprocessors are intended as good combatants in their own right, with a "light gimmick" thrown in that we thought would be interesting.  Not entirely dissimilar to the zenith chameleon: the camouflage ability really isn't all that, but it's an interesting mechanic to have somewhere in the game.