Author Topic: AI War Beta 5.064-5.067 "Abilities Unlocked" Released!  (Read 11305 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 5.064-5.067 "Abilities Unlocked" Released!
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2012, 10:01:28 am »
Update: 5.067 hotfix is out to fix a bug where nebulae past the third or fourth were not generating scenarios, and a few other bugfix/balance changes.
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Offline junkdog

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Re: AI War Beta 5.064-5.067 "Abilities Unlocked" Released!
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2012, 10:34:27 am »
Update: 5.067 hotfix is out to fix a bug where nebulae past the third or fourth were not generating scenarios, and a few other bugfix/balance changes.

Are the scenarios assigned during mapgen or can I apply the patch to an existing 5.066 game? 

Offline platinawolf

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Re: AI War Beta 5.064-5.067 "Abilities Unlocked" Released!
« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2012, 10:38:59 am »
Thank god for the tackle drone change (blowing up at edge)! Now I can finally keep my army on the map! *Mourns the thousands of ships that have been blown to far away to recover* To bad it doesn't apply retroactivly,,, Oh well :P

And the AI is very pissed at me atm,,, At 587 AIP, one chokepoint, we both have tackle-drones... And I've only gotten 1 ARS (The others are out in AI territory, hard enough as it is to get the shard's home!). Oh well, atleast I can clear the blob guarding my wormhole with a wellplaced martyr and I can make the tackle-drones a non-factor with massive amounts of Shield Bearers... Just hope I have enough asteroids to last through all the shards,,,

Offline Cinth

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Re: AI War Beta 5.064-5.067 "Abilities Unlocked" Released!
« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2012, 10:45:40 am »
Update: 5.067 hotfix is out to fix a bug where nebulae past the third or fourth were not generating scenarios, and a few other bugfix/balance changes.

Are the scenarios assigned during mapgen or can I apply the patch to an existing 5.066 game?

Supposed to be generated when you enter a nebula now. So you should be ok to patch.

Edit: Yep. 5.061 changed it
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 10:48:34 am by Cinth »
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 5.064-5.067 "Abilities Unlocked" Released!
« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2012, 10:53:30 am »
Update: 5.067 hotfix is out to fix a bug where nebulae past the third or fourth were not generating scenarios, and a few other bugfix/balance changes.

Are the scenarios assigned during mapgen or can I apply the patch to an existing 5.066 game?

Supposed to be generated when you enter a nebula now. So you should be ok to patch.

Edit: Yep. 5.061 changed it
Yea, it should work.  I tested the change on a submitted save that had an empty nebula, and it wasn't empty after the fix :)
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Offline junkdog

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Re: AI War Beta 5.064-5.067 "Abilities Unlocked" Released!
« Reply #50 on: August 20, 2012, 11:10:58 am »
Update: 5.067 hotfix is out to fix a bug where nebulae past the third or fourth were not generating scenarios, and a few other bugfix/balance changes.

Are the scenarios assigned during mapgen or can I apply the patch to an existing 5.066 game?

Supposed to be generated when you enter a nebula now. So you should be ok to patch.

Edit: Yep. 5.061 changed it

Sweet. Now the only thing remaining is finding a healthy pocket of time...

Offline RCIX

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Re: AI War Beta 5.064-5.067 "Abilities Unlocked" Released!
« Reply #51 on: August 20, 2012, 01:11:14 pm »
Just wanna make sure, this means a nebula which i visited and didn't generate any scenario will after the patch? It won't just be unexplored ones? Sorry if I'm being dense, had to get up early today =p
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 5.064-5.067 "Abilities Unlocked" Released!
« Reply #52 on: August 20, 2012, 01:12:52 pm »
Just wanna make sure, this means a nebula which i visited and didn't generate any scenario will after the patch? It won't just be unexplored ones? Sorry if I'm being dense, had to get up early today =p
The save I tested with was from you, actually, and the nebula you'd said had no scenario in it... had a scenario in it :)
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Offline LordSloth

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Re: AI War Beta 5.064-5.067 "Abilities Unlocked" Released!
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2012, 04:29:34 am »
First, a bit of background. Three friends and I played a four player game against two level five AIs: Peacekeeper, Sledgehammer. This was not meant to be a difficult game: we had easy golems on and easy botnet golems for the guy staying at home. The only twist in the deal was the Avenger plots on both that I neglected to warn them about.

I have some concerns about how low we were able to keep the AI progress, but that is mostly worth disregarding till I've some other setups, no. of players, and difficulties under my belt. There were a couple things that I do not want to dismiss.

I believe the Neinzul Cruiser Champion is dangerously overpowered, despite its decreased armament. It isn't exactly the radar dampening, ability, cloaking, or vampirism. I could live with all four, especially given the limited module selection (particularly with regards to how it is limited in nebulae and core worlds). The problem is that it doesn't put systems on alert, even if it is attacking them. I actually took this champion to the AI Core and Homeworlds several times without any repercussions whatsoever, considering their immortality. Now one time I did set lose mark vs, but that was due to extreme sloppiness. Prior to the Cruiser, I could use a combination of cloaking and the repair ability in lesser systems to much the same affect. To be honest, I rather like the idea that it doesn't set everything nearby immediately on alert, unlike the other champion lines. However, it needs to at least alert the system it is inhabiting, or else it is just too easily abused. As long as there was no fortress present, and no nearby human system, I could comfortably set my Neinzul Cruiser champion on FRD and walk away. Prior to vampirism I could just take my time with the repair ability - which I don't object to, just the lack of urgency.

Second, I'd like to see a new difficulty setting for the Spirecraft and Golem factions: Extra Hard, where you wouldn't get any access to these units outside of exogalactic strike forces. I wouldn't expect any balancing around it, but by selecting a lower difficulty setting, it may be possible to set up some fun scenarios. On the lower difficulty settings we were able to achieve quite a lot while keeping the AI progress quite low (actually 20 below floor at one point), and it would be nice to have an unpleasant surprise at some point after kicking around the AI so much (again, difficulty 5).

The final thing is really just an interface suggestion I need to file on mantis later today, after sleep and work and then play, in that order: Review the objectives screen for Champion-only players. Most specifically, knowledge gathering section shows up and lists every cleared planet - even though you have no access to science labs and no place to spend said knowledge. Unlike the presence of broken Golems, ARS, etc, this information is of no use in forming cooperative strategies with normal players and just clutters the list. I should review that after work - but I'll probably crash and sleep, so I'm mentioning it now so I can remember it later.

The Avenger plots actually played out very well and dramatically given the minimal interest in golems and the lack of spire frigates. It was a rather fun and dramatic ending to the game, considering their slow speed and our champion travel speed concerns in traveling/eliminating the other core world.

I found the Missile Modules surprisingly helpful on the Neinzul Destroyer and Cruiser Champions. My initial impression of missiles with the Human Shadow Frigate was less than lackluster, given the need to maintain a shield. The ability to deploy repair with cloak on the edge of a system allowed tme to keep in system, if not always in fight, and not abandon for the two other variants. The pricing seemed about right, but I wouldn't mind the cost dropping to 450, in order to have it available a little more often. Dropping the shields also allowed me to have equal, if not surpassing firepower compared to the Zenith and Human Shadow variants, due to the lack of distracting heavy beam modules. I could solo one small starbase before retreating, though large starbases, fortresses, and avengers remained beyond my grasp even as a cruiser. Of course, there are still quite a few things those missile modules won't do, so it was a fair tradeoff.

I was impressed with the selection of small mounts on the Neinzul, but the insanity module was quite useless given how late the RNG decided to unlock it for us, our low AI progress, and the laughable waves resulting from AI 5. It looks like it could be quite tempting under more challenging settings, however.

The balance on level ups seems pretty solid at the moment. Despite regretting unlocking extra shielding, I did have enough remaining for mk2 needlers, mk 2 (3 with farming) insanity modules, and the mk4 missiles. The random unlocks leads to some interesting choices and 'make-do' design that plays out in some interesting ways. I enjoyed it that way- but I will note that it doesn't seem to lend itself to a very flexible playstyle- as one's first impressions of multiple hulls and the ease of switching might first imply. It does lend itself more to an adaptable playstyle, however. Speaking strictly as a player to other players, I recommend showing some restraint in your initial unlockings. At the moment, the level gain rate does slow down significantly somewhere around 15-20, and after that it will take a conscious effort to farm exp. So do not grab all the low-hanging modules to try out. Experiment with the basics a bit and try not to unlock unnecessary upgrades. I went with mk2 needlers to clear large hordes of dangerous nebula light craft, but also grabbing laser modules, for instance, would have severely stunted my ability to max out some of the other modules I decided I wantd, and I ended up regretting grabbing a shield upgrade as well, since I went Neinzul. It was certainly manageable as is without farming, but early greed could have quite easily hampered me later on. Heavy modules and some very special light modules do require the same unlocks,  so.... i've just lost my train of thought at 5 AM. Something to do with enjoying it even more when the third or fourth nebula offers up its interesting grabbag of options. I certainly didn't regret the shield or needlers much - the former let my try out some of the other hulls from time to time, and the latter helped a lot in nebula and sites rich with reclaim/translocation/paralysis-immune ships.

I do kind of regret that the scenarios and unlock costs do significantly decrease the appeal of investing in translocator modules and the like... but I could afford to mess around with those a bit if I play it a bit more frugal early on... I don't think they should necessarily be cheaper given some of their impressive utility, nor that they should affect nebula ships, just that there was a non-nebula challenge you could take on later on to erase some of those regrets. Seizing and holding a spire archive for a couple levels, for instance, but perhaps with some additional interaction that ends up requiring teamwork with the 'normal' player. Latch onto an archive for three minutes, get zombies while immobilized?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 05:15:40 am by LordSloth »

Offline Ricca

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Re: AI War Beta 5.064-5.067 "Abilities Unlocked" Released!
« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2012, 06:35:15 am »
Keith, um, slight problem.

My Neinzul Youngling Nanoswarms have forgotten how to use regeneration chambers.

As in, they don't go into them automatically. Or manually. Instead, they take the third option of waiting until they die.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 5.064-5.067 "Abilities Unlocked" Released!
« Reply #55 on: August 21, 2012, 11:07:49 am »
Keith, um, slight problem.

My Neinzul Youngling Nanoswarms have forgotten how to use regeneration chambers.

As in, they don't go into them automatically. Or manually. Instead, they take the third option of waiting until they die.
Do you have a save where another youngling type is using is using it properly, but nanoswarms are not?
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 5.064-5.067 "Abilities Unlocked" Released!
« Reply #56 on: August 21, 2012, 11:20:12 am »
LordSloth, thanks very much for the detailed feedback, that's very helpful :)

I believe the Neinzul Cruiser Champion is dangerously overpowered, despite its decreased armament. It isn't exactly the radar dampening, ability, cloaking, or vampirism. I could live with all four, especially given the limited module selection (particularly with regards to how it is limited in nebulae and core worlds). The problem is that it doesn't put systems on alert, even if it is attacking them.
That is... really odd.  I didn't tell it not to alert stuff, and to my knowledge even a single raptor will put a planet on alert if it decloaks to attack.  Do you have a save where attacking does not cause alert?

Quote
Second, I'd like to see a new difficulty setting for the Spirecraft and Golem factions: Extra Hard, where you wouldn't get any access to these units outside of exogalactic strike forces.
You mean it hits you with the exos, but you don't get any superweapons in return? ;)

Quote
The final thing is really just an interface suggestion I need to file on mantis later today, after sleep and work and then play, in that order: Review the objectives screen for Champion-only players.
Ah, right, most of that's not going to make much sense for champion-only.  And even for normal+champion it should create a listing of known blue wormholes whose nebula has not been completed.

Quote
I found the Missile Modules surprisingly helpful on the Neinzul Destroyer and Cruiser Champions.
Yea, the missiles have bonuses against starbases, and pretty much the longest range of any champion module, so they have a definite niche.  But aside from the stuff they have a bonus against... very lackluster.

Quote
The balance on level ups seems pretty solid at the moment.
I think you're the first person to think that ;)  It's probably going to be made a little more generous to allow for a bit more flexibility, but it sounds like you got the general message: a little dabbling is ok, but specializing in at least one small and one large module line is a good idea.

Quote
I do kind of regret that the scenarios and unlock costs do significantly decrease the appeal of investing in translocator modules and the like... but I could afford to mess around with those a bit if I play it a bit more frugal early on... I don't think they should necessarily be cheaper given some of their impressive utility, nor that they should affect nebula ships, just that there was a non-nebula challenge you could take on later on to erase some of those regrets.
There's plenty of non-nebula challenges; waves, CPAs, exos, attacking AI planets, etc, etc :) 

Anyway, yea, there are several module lines that are mainly debuff focused (like many bonus ship types) and they usually don't affect nebula ships.  They're intended for use on normal planets, and you don't have to invest into them to use them, you get the mkI versions for free when you get them at all.  Anyway, thanks for the feedback, I'll keep it in mind :)
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Offline Cinth

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Re: AI War Beta 5.064-5.067 "Abilities Unlocked" Released!
« Reply #57 on: August 21, 2012, 11:37:57 am »
I believe the Neinzul Cruiser Champion is dangerously overpowered, despite its decreased armament. It isn't exactly the radar dampening, ability, cloaking, or vampirism. I could live with all four, especially given the limited module selection (particularly with regards to how it is limited in nebulae and core worlds). The problem is that it doesn't put systems on alert, even if it is attacking them.
That is... really odd.  I didn't tell it not to alert stuff, and to my knowledge even a single raptor will put a planet on alert if it decloaks to attack.  Do you have a save where attacking does not cause alert?

I'm not seeing this at all. I spent a lot of time with the NSCA last night. And I just double checked this morning (in my save anyway), but a full fight of 8 NSCA deep striking to a core world, not only alerted every AI planet on the path it took, it caused a nasty stream of Mk V ships to flood from the homeworld (lol).
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 5.064-5.067 "Abilities Unlocked" Released!
« Reply #58 on: August 21, 2012, 11:47:51 am »
8 Neinzul Shadow Cruisers?  Have you no shame? ;)
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Offline Cinth

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Re: AI War Beta 5.064-5.067 "Abilities Unlocked" Released!
« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2012, 11:54:42 am »
8 Neinzul Shadow Cruisers?  Have you no shame? ;)

Just tooling around with different set ups.  The Zenith line are my favorite right now. Waiting to see the last line  :D

A note about the regen ability on NSCA. With the lowest performance profile and some game lag, they sometimes done work properly. I've dropped several and not had them repair anything (no assist lines shown at all). This happens to all engis, MRS, and forts too. It isn't as big a deal with those, but with the timed nature of the ability, it is a let down when it happens.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.