Author Topic: AI War Beta 5.034 "Is It Really A 'Minor' Faction If You Scale It That High?" Re  (Read 11304 times)

Offline platinawolf

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Yay, super dysons ^^* Or not ^^* Started the game, found the dyson sphere and it pumped out 2 dysons within 6 secs of the last pair dying, thought it was a bug and set the planet free, no increase in spawn-quantity of dysons but speed is still rather fast.

Playing on low unit-caps, 10 dyson, 4 homeworlds. Not sure how to report on Mantis ^^*

Offline keith.lamothe

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Yay, super dysons ^^* Or not ^^* Started the game, found the dyson sphere and it pumped out 2 dysons within 6 secs of the last pair dying, thought it was a bug and set the planet free, no increase in spawn-quantity of dysons but speed is still rather fast.

Playing on low unit-caps, 10 dyson, 4 homeworlds. Not sure how to report on Mantis ^^*
The dyson's intensity controls how many seconds between spawns (and the size of the pop cap) ; other rules that have been around for a while control the quantity that come out at each spawn :)  Before variable strength it was 20 seconds, and that's what it is on intensity-4.  On 10 it's 6 seconds.  In theory it could be faster, I didn't go as nuts with that faction as I did with some of the others on 10 ;)
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Offline platinawolf

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Yay, super dysons ^^* Or not ^^* Started the game, found the dyson sphere and it pumped out 2 dysons within 6 secs of the last pair dying, thought it was a bug and set the planet free, no increase in spawn-quantity of dysons but speed is still rather fast.

Playing on low unit-caps, 10 dyson, 4 homeworlds. Not sure how to report on Mantis ^^*
The dyson's intensity controls how many seconds between spawns (and the size of the pop cap) ; other rules that have been around for a while control the quantity that come out at each spawn :)  Before variable strength it was 20 seconds, and that's what it is on intensity-4.  On 10 it's 6 seconds.  In theory it could be faster, I didn't go as nuts with that faction as I did with some of the others on 10 ;)

Yupp, I'm aware that purple's spawn two and two, red one's tend to spawn 3 or more and green is just one a pop ^^* Silly thing is that I get two that spawns, then I get no more dysons untill one of them dies, even with 200+ AIP. Or is there something else thats slowing down the spawn rate of the dyson's after the first two have been popped out?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Silly thing is that I get two that spawns, then I get no more dysons untill one of them dies, even with 200+ AIP. Or is there something else thats slowing down the spawn rate of the dyson's after the first two have been popped out?
On faction-intensity 10 the pop cap is AIP * 2.5, like it says right here in... the... code...

*facepalm*

Just in for 5.035:
Quote
* Fixed bug where the new pop-cap mechanic for the dyson sphere was setting the population cap properly according to faction-intensity... and then setting it to 2.  Yeaaaaah.  Dyson's on vacation in 5.034, boys and girls!

Thanks for letting me know :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline platinawolf

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Silly thing is that I get two that spawns, then I get no more dysons untill one of them dies, even with 200+ AIP. Or is there something else thats slowing down the spawn rate of the dyson's after the first two have been popped out?
On faction-intensity 10 the pop cap is AIP * 2.5, like it says right here in... the... code...

*facepalm*

Just in for 5.035:
Quote
* Fixed bug where the new pop-cap mechanic for the dyson sphere was setting the population cap properly according to faction-intensity... and then setting it to 2.  Yeaaaaah.  Dyson's on vacation in 5.034, boys and girls!

Thanks for letting me know :)

Cant wait till my dysons are back to working protection duty of my lil corner of the universe :) Thank you for making such a wonderful game! Now please give Tidalis on iPad and I'l really love you guys :P Sadly I dont think AI-wars control scheme would work on an iPad though :(:(

Offline lemons

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I can confirm that 10/10/10/10 (AI/AI/Spire/Fallen Spire) is still quite doable with 16 HWs on X maps. Survived 3 Exo waves no problem and at the rate I was going I doubt more were going to be an issue. Stacking attritioners to gain +200% feedback damage almost makes it too easy. Didn't turn on Golems because they don't scale well.

Will try a 1 HW X map game to see it if I can replicate those results. Will require a lot more finesse to get past the early parts but hopefully I'll survive long enough to implement some very tasty cheese.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Stacking attritioners to gain +200% feedback damage almost makes it too easy.
As I said, the cheese is strong with some, such that no mere numbers I can throw at them will attain to victory :)
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Offline lemons

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Stacking attritioners to gain +200% feedback damage almost makes it too easy.
As I said, the cheese is strong with some, such that no mere numbers I can throw at them will attain to victory :)

I dunno, another 2x multiplier on wave strength would probably cause the game to crash. Thats technically a loss I think  ;D

PS: Fix attritioner direct damage scaling with unit caps so that on ultra low unit caps the attritioners can also deal 1 million DPS to everything in the system plz.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 08:03:10 pm by lemons »

Offline Tridus

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For Spire Civilian Leaders, you could have the intensity setting control their activation rate. Right now it's hourly. If you have a setting to speed that up it could make turning that faction on REALLY dangerous if you don't move quickly (turning it down would largely negate them as a factor though). Imagine 10 AIP every 10 minutes until you manage to capture a couple? Yikes!

Offline keith.lamothe

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For Spire Civilian Leaders, you could have the intensity setting control their activation rate. Right now it's hourly. If you have a setting to speed that up it could make turning that faction on REALLY dangerous if you don't move quickly (turning it down would largely negate them as a factor though). Imagine 10 AIP every 10 minutes until you manage to capture a couple? Yikes!
That would be pretty brutal, yea ;)  Though once you captured enough of them, it would be a fairly short ride to the AIP floor.  That's fine from the perspective of "if it's on 10, it dominates the game",  but I'm not sure I want it to work out quite that way.  At least with the Dyson, when players have contracted out their entire defense operation to it, it wasn't that the AI just went to sleep and stopped trying.  If AIP is stuck on the floor the whole last 5 hours of the game, though, it's probably just boring.
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Offline Tridus

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Yeah that's true. :( You could tinker with the number that spawn I suppose, but if they started appearing too frequently it'd have the same problem once you raid away the ones you don't want to capture (or in a Fallen Spire game if you take a ton of territory).

I guess that could still work in a normal game though, if the spawn rate on them went up as you increase the intensity you'd have to spend more effort to kill ones that you can't take an hold, otherwise the sheer number would start to overwhelm the AIP reduction the captured ones give.

Offline lemons

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Exo waves for every Civilian Leader!

Seriously though, I kind of dislike how they give effectively infinite AIP reduction right now, with the only bound being time you want to spend waiting.

There could be some kind of periodic small scale AI response which would be easily defeated on it's own but with 5 other civilians + normal waves + exo waves + w/e else works as an additional way to make yourself feel like you are stretched thin. Scale up the frequency (not strength!) of the attacks with the amount of AIP you have reduced. This way capturing and holding lots of civilians gives a good death by a thousand cuts feeling. IMO the best way to lose things in the game isn't to the mega waves of doom, its the slowly being eaten away because you just haven't planned your unlocks/systems/defenses well enough to stop the bleeding of things you want to protect.

Alternatively/additionally, have a cap on the amount of AIP reduction you can gain. If you capture a civilian leader before the first minute you can gain a max of 10 AIP reduction from it. If you capture it in the 10th hour you can get a maximum of 20 AIP reduction from it (offset by the +10 AIP it already generated). Perhaps have some cool consolation prize for reaching the limit, say the Civilians were scientists and their research provides an extra 500 knowledge each, or a neat cap ship to use (perhaps scale it so that the first civilians give mk1s, the last ones give mk5s?), or some other kind of flat benefit that doesn't incentivize doing nothing for 50 hours so you can win with AIP permanently floored.


On a sidenote, whose to say that having 8 Devourer golems roaming the galaxy wouldn't make for a hilarious game? Lets make this happen!
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 03:35:04 pm by lemons »

Offline Tridus

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Well, they're more of a benefit in a longer game. In a shorter game you need to capture a lot of them to offset the AIP they're generating before you can find them.

But I don't view it as a bad thing that they're basically a positive if you can find them and hold them. The Dyson Sphere is almost entirely a positive to have on too once you get it on your side.  It's alright to have a couple of minor factions that are more helpful then painful. :)

Offline lemons

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I agree that there is nothing wrong with strict positive benefits, but as Keith says the other positive benefits don't outright win the game for you. Theoretically is possible to capture only 3 systems and have the AIP permanently floored as long as you have lots of patience. Players shouldn't be able to abuse what is essentially game's difficulty barometer so badly (and this is coming from a king of abuse :P), which is why I think a nice secondary payout at an AIP reduction cap in lieu of infinite AIP reduction would be a good change.

Perhaps you could convert it into a minor bonus ship production facility after the AIP reduction cap, which will maintain the incentive to continue keeping it alive throughout the game.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 03:47:55 pm by lemons »

Offline Hearteater

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Some SCL thoughts.  Assuming they still give +1 AIP/hour while AI controlled unless otherwise mentioned.

*) Freeing them gives a one time -10 AIP, but they have +10 AIP on death if the player is controlling them
*) Freeing them gives 50k power
*) Freeing them gives 60 M & C
*) Freeing them gives a one-time 1000 knowledge when freed, but they have +10 AIP on death if the player is controlling them
*) Controlling a SCL makes all enemy SCL provide you scouting information from their systems (maybe just the nearest one or two)
*) Seed SCL equal to the rating selected, so all current games would technically be SCL-10, not SCL-4