Author Topic: AI War Beta 5.031, "Harvest Of The Unloved," Released!  (Read 12318 times)

Offline Wanderer

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Re: AI War Beta 5.031, "Harvest Of The Unloved," Released!
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2012, 01:27:46 am »
Keith,

Can you doublecheck annoyed Dyson Spawns?  I think something got goofed with the Hybrid stuff.  I've got an aggravated Dyson here simply by putting a command station on the planet that's spawning x5 enemy dysons/spawn.  I don't even have hybrids on. :)
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Offline rickynumber24

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Re: AI War Beta 5.031, "Harvest Of The Unloved," Released!
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2012, 02:16:34 am »
I love the changes to the Warp-Jammer. I never used it, it was just too expensive knowledge wise, but now....

I'll try it out as soon as I find time, which is hard to come by unfortunately :-(

The new warp jammer is fantastic.  Can you spot the warp jammers in this image?  ;)

The level 4 planet next to my homeworld is still there because I have a backdoor hacker as one of the opposing AIs, so I'm getting waves to my homeworld anyway.  On the other hand, being able to not alert a core world is a fantastic trick for a warp jammer.

Incidentally, the new Parasites are pretty fantastic, too.  I rolled the dice on my first ARS in that game and it came up Parasites.  (One of the other options was Space Planes, and I forget the third, but at that point I still thought the leftmost option, in this case Parasites, was the one that would be default...)  It varies depending on the units the AI is throwing me at any given time, but I think I'm running around with at least half a cap of every type of fleetship (except those immune to reclamation) the AI has... even without upgrading beyond mk. 2.  (I keep thinking I'm "almost done" with this game, and they'll be much less useful on the AI homeworlds.)  Well, okay, I did use Mercenary Parasites, too, but you always get those.  You do need something to bring the DPS, but I think you could probably get away with never upgrading any triangle ship if you have Parasites as your bonus ship now.  I'm not completely sure because this is only my third game, and the one with the smallest map, so far, but I've had a lot of fun playing around with all the ships.  It's a great tool for getting a survey of different ship types.

(Incidentally, if you have any advice in the above picture, say, about which homeworld I should hit first once I take out the rest of the A shield group, I'd appreciate it.)

Edit: figured out how to make the picture more manageably-sized
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 02:21:14 am by rickynumber24 »

Offline PokerChen

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Re: AI War Beta 5.031, "Harvest Of The Unloved," Released!
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2012, 06:16:04 am »
(Incidentally, if you have any advice in the above picture, say, about which homeworld I should hit first once I take out the rest of the A shield group, I'd appreciate it.)
Assuming no core Raids/CPAs, Desmond. Since you already have Tunneonnoci, you won't have to fight through a core world to get to Lepihral. Taking Sezinu for its ARS ggrants a highway straight over once you've taken down the first AI.

Fighting through a core world before the second HW merely grants the AI more reinforcement time.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 5.031, "Harvest Of The Unloved," Released!
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2012, 09:15:04 am »
Keith,

Can you doublecheck annoyed Dyson Spawns?  I think something got goofed with the Hybrid stuff.  I've got an aggravated Dyson here simply by putting a command station on the planet that's spawning x5 enemy dysons/spawn.  I don't even have hybrids on. :)
That's the way they've always been, I believe :)  If you want an ARS on the Dyson planet you'll want engies to flash-build a command station and immediately tear it back down once you've got the unlock.

If you want a fab or fact-IV or whatever ongoing benefit... I think they stay useable if captured and then the planet is lost, so long as you can persuade the angry dysons to not kill them.
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: AI War Beta 5.031, "Harvest Of The Unloved," Released!
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2012, 01:57:22 pm »
Keith,

Can you doublecheck annoyed Dyson Spawns?  I think something got goofed with the Hybrid stuff.  I've got an aggravated Dyson here simply by putting a command station on the planet that's spawning x5 enemy dysons/spawn.  I don't even have hybrids on. :)
That's the way they've always been, I believe :)  If you want an ARS on the Dyson planet you'll want engies to flash-build a command station and immediately tear it back down once you've got the unlock.

If you want a fab or fact-IV or whatever ongoing benefit... I think they stay useable if captured and then the planet is lost, so long as you can persuade the angry dysons to not kill them.

The fab/factories/whatnot do, I just never remember them having that spawn volume, particularly when I had to CSG hunt.  Okay, chalk one up to bad memory, just wanted to doublecheck.
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Offline _K_

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Re: AI War Beta 5.031, "Harvest Of The Unloved," Released!
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2012, 04:50:27 pm »
I finally got to crunch some numbers with the new havesters vs economy stations.

I have done calculation of MKIII harvesters vs fullcap of MKII+MKIII eco stations, with an assumption that home has 12 harvesters and each system has on average a total of 3.5 resources.

For the "average number of resources" i used statistical approach using my 3 most recent saves. A total of 101 non-home systems have been checked, and the average number of resources per planet is 3.88. So i guess it would be fair to set it to 4, but lets calculate for the "worst-case" scenario - 3.5

With the 12 harvesters at home, and not being able to build eco stations until you actually have planets for them, harvesters are superior at the "1 planet" point. Eco stations slowly catch up, but at 13 planets, harvesters generate total of 3392, vs Ecos' 2112. Eco stations just cant catch up with harvesters, given their limit of 6+6. The only situation where eco stations are better is if for some reason you have no harvesters at home.

In addition, unlike harvesters, eco stations have alternatives. Having more logistics and battle stations, even in generally secure areas, is very beneficial. This also means that the full eco station limit is usually reached when you have more than 13 planets.

As such, i believe that currently the eco stations are basically just universallty inferior (with some small exception) to harvester upgrades.
In addition, i generally believe that having MKIII upgrades more cost-efficient than MKII's is wrong, as it very strongly promotes rushing a MKIII. As result, a mixed MKII+MKII, or just getting one MKII is never an option as they arent very cost-efficient. In my opinion, the general rule of diminishing returns should be kept here.

As such, i'd suggest quite a serious re-revision of the econ upgrades system.

Suggestion 1:
Set research costs to 1500/3000 for MKII/MKIII harvesters, and 3000/6000 for econ station. As result, getting to MKIII costs as much. For harvesters, also change their total incomes to 32/56 at MKII/MKIII.
This basically does some adjustments to balance, making eco stations viable again, as well as making MKII's more viable in general.

Suggestion 2 goes further:

Average of 4 resources per system is assumed here.
Research costs are the same as previous 1500/3000 (x2 for 2 kinds of harvester) and 3000/6000.
32/44 on harvester income (so, just a further nerf to MKIIIs, and yeah they are that good); and adjust ECO stations to make 90/150 of each resource.
As result, if you research MKII+MKIII, it costs the same, and if you deploy all 12 eco stations, also gives you the same income. This scheme is what everyone has been doing until this update, this is what i consider balanced enough, and this is what i wanted to stay (almost) untouched.

In general, suggestion 2 brings what i consider ideal balance, where every option is actually viable.
Eco2's make decent money for super cheap cost, but once you have 6, you gotta get higher techs to increase income. You can rush Eco3's for insane income, thats less efficient than using Ecos2's until you actually build all of the stations. MkII harvesters are insanely efficient, in early game they give minimal income so you might have trouble. MKIII's are great for very late game, or on large maps. In general, eco stations are better than harvester, but only if you build them excplusively, as result trading off the chance to use other types of stations.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 05:49:07 pm by _K_ »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 5.031, "Harvest Of The Unloved," Released!
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2012, 04:59:10 pm »
I appreciate the analysis :)  But 3.5 spots per planet is nothing like what I was seeing.  It was closer to 2.  Was this an MP or multi-HW game?
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Offline _K_

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Re: AI War Beta 5.031, "Harvest Of The Unloved," Released!
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2012, 05:18:28 pm »
I appreciate the analysis :)  But 3.5 spots per planet is nothing like what I was seeing.  It was closer to 2.  Was this an MP or multi-HW game?

Singleplayer. One HW. Homeworlds and nuked systems excluded from calculation.

I knew all those saves of the games i have played would be handy for something.
Checked 2 more saves. So i have total of 5 saves checked, 179 systems. Average resource count is 3.877
Here's a zip with those saves: http://rghost.ru/37223807. The password is 0000. I'm paranoid and Rghost is not secure.

And, uh, cant you, like check the source codes for galaxy generation anyway? I'm pretty sure number of resources is decided with just 1-2 rolls, thats why i assumed the average was 4, after all. Is it maybe dependant on the galaxy size?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 05:41:31 pm by _K_ »

Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI War Beta 5.031, "Harvest Of The Unloved," Released!
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2012, 05:30:29 pm »
Are you remembering to consider the homeworlds (three in a single player game, 1 for the human, 2 for the AI) when computing the average? Homeworlds have a crazy good bonus to the number of resource spots they get, enough to start skewing the average, especially on smaller galaxy maps.

Offline Volatar

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Re: AI War Beta 5.031, "Harvest Of The Unloved," Released!
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2012, 06:33:45 pm »
If you are trying to get my shiny harvesters nerfed I might just have to send some Raid starships to visit your house.   :P

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 5.031, "Harvest Of The Unloved," Released!
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2012, 06:38:27 pm »
If you are trying to get my shiny harvesters nerfed I might just have to send some Raid starships to visit your house.   :P
They're probably busy selling protection to local merchants ;)
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI War Beta 5.031, "Harvest Of The Unloved," Released!
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2012, 06:45:26 pm »
If you are trying to get my shiny harvesters nerfed I might just have to send some Raid starships to visit your house.   :P
They're probably busy selling protection to local merchants ;)

Good thing I placed some nice gravity turrets around my property line.

Offline Wanderer

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Re: AI War Beta 5.031, "Harvest Of The Unloved," Released!
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2012, 07:10:56 pm »
I appreciate the analysis :)  But 3.5 spots per planet is nothing like what I was seeing.  It was closer to 2.  Was this an MP or multi-HW game?

Keith, he's counting m+c, not the individual types, which is where your ~2 comes from, if memory serves.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 5.031, "Harvest Of The Unloved," Released!
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2012, 07:28:26 pm »
Keith, he's counting m+c, not the individual types, which is where your ~2 comes from, if memory serves.
In the investigation I did of average spots when figuring out what numbers to use, I was seeing no more than 4 (total) spots per planet and quite a few with 1, and some with 2 or 3.  Anyway, will look into it :)
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: AI War Beta 5.031, "Harvest Of The Unloved," Released!
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2012, 07:31:45 pm »
Keith, he's counting m+c, not the individual types, which is where your ~2 comes from, if memory serves.
In the investigation I did of average spots when figuring out what numbers to use, I was seeing no more than 4 (total) spots per planet and quite a few with 1, and some with 2 or 3.  Anyway, will look into it :)

A good chunk of that comes from 'special' planets usually carrying 6/7 spots.  MK IV facts, heavy fab planets, etc.  It's inconsistent but those appear to skew the ratio pretty heavily.  I believe it ends up around 3 average on the 3 maps I personally checked, but that's moot.  You've got the code. :)
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