Author Topic: AI War Beta 5.027, "SuperTerminal Overload," Released!  (Read 9102 times)

Offline Spikey00

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Re: AI War Beta 5.027, "SuperTerminal Overload," Released!
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2012, 02:26:44 pm »
Hm, could we fit mines into 5.028?  They've really been obsolete for the long, long while now.

EDIT:  oops, forgot to attach Mantis issue.  http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=5846
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 02:44:27 pm by Spikey00 »
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Offline orzelek

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Re: AI War Beta 5.027, "SuperTerminal Overload," Released!
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2012, 02:55:52 pm »
Just a guess on attacking AI bombards: cloaking starship + transports + whatever fleet ship (preferably cheap) you have that kills bombards.

Or no joy?

sounds intensely micro heavy for a dozen bombards. Besides, normally the bombards have a few dozen ships at the wormhole entrance, blowing up the cloaker starships at  least.

But I don't think it is a problem. That is their niche. They shoot at you and get a free shot or two before another ship can fire back. They are slow and fragile and take a very long while before shots.  Don't make them same-y. The fact they are extra ordinary from the average ship is why they are desired today.

Their niche you say..
Bombards in question have 1.2mil hp (Mk II), they have 33k range which quite exceeds range of ships that shoot at them (can get quite more than one shot even with 30 sec reload) and group speed of my fleet is at 18 and any ships that abandon the group are eaten quite quickly :D
Considering that you would need to micro to hunt them on any planet you enter or suffer attrition.. their role doesn't seem like niche. It is simply annoying. Their habit of murdering things like transports, bombard ships and raid ships doesn't make it easier. And AI likes to have them quite more than their cap on given planet.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI War Beta 5.027, "SuperTerminal Overload," Released!
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2012, 03:04:30 pm »
Just a guess on attacking AI bombards: cloaking starship + transports + whatever fleet ship (preferably cheap) you have that kills bombards.

Or no joy?

sounds intensely micro heavy for a dozen bombards. Besides, normally the bombards have a few dozen ships at the wormhole entrance, blowing up the cloaker starships at  least.

But I don't think it is a problem. That is their niche. They shoot at you and get a free shot or two before another ship can fire back. They are slow and fragile and take a very long while before shots.  Don't make them same-y. The fact they are extra ordinary from the average ship is why they are desired today.

Their niche you say..
Bombards in question have 1.2mil hp (Mk II), they have 33k range which quite exceeds range of ships that shoot at them (can get quite more than one shot even with 30 sec reload) and group speed of my fleet is at 18 and any ships that abandon the group are eaten quite quickly :D
Considering that you would need to micro to hunt them on any planet you enter or suffer attrition.. their role doesn't seem like niche. It is simply annoying. Their habit of murdering things like transports, bombard ships and raid ships doesn't make it easier. And AI likes to have them quite more than their cap on given planet.

So would you suggest that their damage go down some? Their fire rate go down some (aka. their reload time go up some)? Their range go down some? Their health go down some? Or their speed go down some (to reduce how well they can kite)? Or some combination of the above?

Although keeping things together is very useful, sometimes you need that speed. Maybe you can instead group move only some of your faster ships (like speed 40ish and up?) together after the bombards. That way, there still is a blob that is harder to pick off, but not one quite so agonizingly slow (18 speed won't always cut it). Artillery ships, by their nature, are excellent on defense. And units that are great on defense will sometimes need a bit a micro to take care of them, because you don't have much of an advantage when you first pop in otherwise.

And, as I stated before, you can abuse bombards in a similar way when using them for defense on your planets (except for the more than ship cap part, of course)

Though, come to think of it, the AI seems to get above ship caps of low ship cap units very quickly. Are you sure the scaling of ship caps and reinforcement multipliers is working right? Sure, the AI gets bombards at a much slower rate than they get, say, fighters, but it still doesn't seem slow enough for their low ship cap. (of course, that could just me being annoyed, and the system is actually working just fine)

Offline chemical_art

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Re: AI War Beta 5.027, "SuperTerminal Overload," Released!
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2012, 03:26:32 pm »
If you group move all your units together its like you make a fortress (without the range). They have tons of health and firepower but move slow. Bombards in ancient times were fortress killers.

I don't see how you can't group move your faster units, bombers and fighters for example, and have them go out and kill the bombards. Your group move is being slowed by your own artillary units. If you send your fast units directly to the bombards, you will start killing them before the second shot. And remember, they come at 1/4 (?) of the caps of triangle ships. So they need to kill four times as many units to equalize on caps. That means a minimal of four shots, 2 minutes. That is enough to decide most battles on way or another.
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Offline orzelek

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Re: AI War Beta 5.027, "SuperTerminal Overload," Released!
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2012, 03:34:32 pm »
Main issue with chasing bombards is that you are waking up whatever toys are next to them with their guard post.
I will try to chase them with fighters/bombers only and chameleons I have for bonus. Armor boosters I have as bonus don't really fare to well even in a fleet blob and their speed is not exactly stellar.

Few times I tried to chase them with bombers.. I ended up without bombers.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: AI War Beta 5.027, "SuperTerminal Overload," Released!
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2012, 03:52:12 pm »
How would they be different then other long range units, like snipers or sentinel frigates, in your situation?
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: AI War Beta 5.027, "SuperTerminal Overload," Released!
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2012, 03:54:25 pm »
Same kind of reason why you likely won't ever see a Dwarf Fortress 2 -- why would you?  Dwarf Fortress itself has never stopped growing, etc. :)

There already is a Dwarf Fortress 2, in a way at least. The Dwarf Fortress that everyone talks about is officially labeled, Slaves to Armok: God of Blood, Chapter II: Dwarf Fortress. Meaning that is officially Volume 2 in it series.

You can get the first game here: http://www.bay12games.com/armok/download.html Although it nothing like the Dwarf Fortress that everyone plays.
Super nitpick:
No, the current Dwarf Fortress is the first Dwarf Fortress, while it is the second "Slaves to Armok" game. So to be quite frank, the series is called "Slaves to Armok" and hence "Dwarf Fortress" is "Slaves to Armok 2". Confusing? Yeah....stupid? Yeah. Dwarfy? Hell yeah!
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 5.027, "SuperTerminal Overload," Released!
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2012, 03:55:24 pm »
It'd be a pain to try to just neuter that system ;)
Not really. Either just swarm the system with high cap ships to effect target saturation, or use infinite engine health ships, OR use ships with enough range to not need a lot of moving. Or just drive a hive golem in and let the wasps take care of everything ;)
True.  I had been thinking "neuter planet on path to something I want, without spending AIP", and running reinforcements through would be a pain thanks to the spider.  But with human warp gates that's less of an issue, too.
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Offline Spikey00

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Re: AI War Beta 5.027, "SuperTerminal Overload," Released!
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2012, 04:00:42 pm »
I would suggest against nerfing Z bombards for the player; they are a rather troublesome ship for AI use, but not quite in human use.  Practically all guard posts have antimatter bomb immunity, which is what they use, so perhaps transports should also be made immune?
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI War Beta 5.027, "SuperTerminal Overload," Released!
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2012, 10:11:21 am »
I would suggest against nerfing Z bombards for the player; they are a rather troublesome ship for AI use, but not quite in human use.  Practically all guard posts have antimatter bomb immunity, which is what they use, so perhaps transports should also be made immune?

Nope, most guard posts do not have Antimatter bomb immunity. They have radar dampening instead.

Now most forcefields and a very few select guard posts have antimatter bomb immunity.

But yea, I would support giving transports antimatter bomb immunity, for similar reasons that fortresses have a .005 multiplier on them. Or possibly make bombards have a .05 (or something) multiplier on Scout hulls, which would also fix this annoyance.

Offline zoutzakje

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Re: AI War Beta 5.027, "SuperTerminal Overload," Released!
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2012, 07:16:16 pm »
I don't see the need to fiddle around with bombards. I have both fought against and played with them and I think they're good as they are now. Yes, they are annoying in AI hands but there are plenty of ways to deal with that. And they're lethal in player hands. Playing with them in my current 7/7 game. I have a full cap of mk I - Mk IV which means exactly 40 bombards (low caps) and they obliterate anything. 60 incoming maws? who cares, they'll be dead long before they reach me, long before they can even start chewing on me.
When going on an attack, move the rest of your fleet in first, bombards about a second after so they won't waste shots on enemy ships near the wormhole. The enemy will then most likely order it's ships to abandon their guard posts and attack. A LOT of them die before they get even near my ships. Very useful.
bombards don't really need a nerf (maybe a very small one) and they certainly don't need a buff.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: PLEASE FIX!
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2012, 02:28:01 pm »
PLEASE FIX before the terror is unleashed!

Please, for goodness sake, could you quick patch this before the next version comes out?

6436: AI space planes and static defense (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=6436)

Basically, space planes have a radar dampening range less than their weapon range, allowing them to hit stuff without stuff being able to hit back. This allows them to win some really silly match-ups against stationary targets.

EDIT: Actually, this is a decently nice ability for space planes in human hands, but a real pain (and not the fun kind of pain) to deal with when they are in AI hands
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 02:40:57 pm by techsy730 »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 5.027, "SuperTerminal Overload," Released!
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2012, 02:41:10 pm »
I don't see why it's suddenly a problem that the space plane can shoot from further away than it can be shot at?  I didn't buff it that much.

It's just one of those types where a finite range purely-static defense won't cut it, unless you make sure that the planes will already be in range of the turrets before the planes can fire on the turrets (i.e. make sure you've got them locked down before they get away from the wormhole) :)
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI War Beta 5.027, "SuperTerminal Overload," Released!
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2012, 02:42:37 pm »
I don't see why it's suddenly a problem that the space plane can shoot from further away than it can be shot at?  I didn't buff it that much.

It's just one of those types where a finite range purely-static defense won't cut it, unless you make sure that the planes will already be in range of the turrets before the planes can fire on the turrets (i.e. make sure you've got them locked down before they get away from the wormhole) :)

Hmm, good points. Sorry for the panic.  :-[