Author Topic: AI War Beta 5.007, "Zombies Are For Eating My Neighbors," Released!  (Read 11111 times)

Offline x4000

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Re: AI War Beta 5.007, "Zombies Are For Eating My Neighbors," Released!
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2011, 11:10:08 am »
I'll probably push it out today, but we'll see how my schedule goes.
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Offline Vinraith

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Re: AI War Beta 5.007, "Zombies Are For Eating My Neighbors," Released!
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2011, 12:01:15 pm »
Actually the original problem (endless buildup), followed by the new problem (endless aggressiveness), kind of balance each other out nicely for those of us that have existing save games through the period. First we had too many allied ships and too much AI threat buildup, then the former completely ate the latter and suicided itself into deep AI space, so now the books are pretty much balanced.  ;D

Thanks as always for your quick responses and fixes Chris, especially with another project taking up most of your time. We appreciate it. :)

Offline x4000

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Re: AI War Beta 5.007, "Zombies Are For Eating My Neighbors," Released!
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2011, 12:07:19 pm »
My pleasure!  And yeah, that did work out surprisingly fortuitously, I suppose. :)
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Offline Sir t

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Re: AI War Beta 5.007, "Zombies Are For Eating My Neighbors," Released!
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2011, 12:19:50 pm »
I was wondering why Dyson Gatlings were wandering past when I was deepstriking an ARS planet...  ;D

Well I've gone from near 200 gatlings to almost none on my planets. Patch success... I think... :D

Offline vonduus

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Re: AI War Beta 5.007, "Zombies Are For Eating My Neighbors," Released!
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2011, 02:18:27 pm »
I haven't played since around early version 4, as it technically was way below the standard of version 3. The game was consistently lagging, the sounds were distorted, and the balancing was way off, so I went back to version 3.7, for some time, and then moved on to other games.

I also got fed up with never really learning the mechanics of the game before they were changed. I love the way bugs get fixed almost instantly, but I don''t like the way features are nerfed and boosted all the time just because a few gamers (including myself) complain about their favourite tactics getting spoiled.

Now I must say that version 5 is a great step forward. No lag, no distortion, and the balancing seems good. Even the graphics are better. Also the way you bypassed the old initial inactivity, where players were waiting for the fleet to gain enough strength to get the game going, is a great step forward. For a short while I experienced the angst of an engineer without his control node, but then I found the control menu, and all the new settings in there. If version 4 was a step back, version 5 is ten steps forward!

And as you are busy with AVWW, chances are that patches will primarily be bug fixes, and not game breaking experiments with some revolutionary new balancing philosophy. So I feel I can safely spend a few weeks or months with this game again,  without suffering design-related heart-attacks.

I am happy that your economy seems to be better than in the autumn. I tried to get some local reviewers to write about aiwar, to boost sales, but there seems to be some kind of aversion against space games in this country. It is not just AIWar, also SotS and SoSE were never reviewed around here, they didn't even get distribution.

Anyway, I am having a good time with this version of the game. There is quite a few things I don't understand yet, but the game has changed so much, so I will take my time getting into it before I formulate any critique.

One thing, though: Siege Battleships have been nerfed beyond recognition. A Siege gun that cannot attack fortifications is simply not a Siege gun. And imo it is not enough to give it a new name that reflects its capabilities (the proper new name would be something like "Good-for-nothing-battleships"  ;)). I acknowledge that this nerf has a reason, and I guess someone exploited them in some way. But this nerf is too drastic. Imo they should be able to attack FFs, and if they were too good at that, to take away some of their firepower. The way I use them, time is not a problem - actually this is what I thought was the beauty of these Dreadnoughts: They could knock out everything from a safe distance, but it took a looong time, and you had to choose: Either kill the enemy now and suffer grave losses, or use a Dreadnought/Siege Battleship and avoid losses, but spend a lot of (precious) time. Right now I only use these ships for Special Guard Stations, but I have plenty of other ships that can take out those structures, so in my next game I will probably not build any Siege Battleships at all.
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Offline x4000

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Re: AI War Beta 5.007, "Zombies Are For Eating My Neighbors," Released!
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2011, 04:04:50 pm »
Glad to have you back, vonduus, and glad you're enjoying 5.0 so well!

That process of porting from 3.070 to 4.x was a really rough process just because the new engine was so different, and both more powerful and more limited in various ways; so certainly things like the sound issues, etc, were something we battled for a while until we found acceptable workarounds (and I don't think it was as distorted for everyone at all, which was part of the trouble in fixing that).

At any rate, 5.0 is definitely a mature version of the "new AI War," whereas 3.x was an extremely mature version of the "old AI War."  Part of what we did as part of the porting, as you know, was basically reinvent a lot of parts of the game.  Things like guard posts and guardians and starships and so on were either added or redefined, partly in an effort to help performance in the new engine, and partly in an effort to shore up a lot of the weaknesses in the "old AI War" all at once, and to move along from there.  I knew that porting was going to be a messy process no matter how we approached it, so I figured we might as well really make a mess of things and re-balance the whole game while we were at it.  I think 4.0 was pretty solid, but not as much as 3.x, and certainly not as much as 5.x, as you say.

Anyhow, the big takeaway that folks should have is that that 4.0 process where we just completely redid the balance was probably a one-time thing in the life of AI War.  Rather than just keeping old assumptions from the earliest versions of AI War, we changed all the fundamental things that had been bugging us at once.  That meant that everything had its balance affected.  We still do ongoing balance shifts, but usually it's pretty localized and not that drastic in the first place.  That's how the balance changes have been for most of the life of AI War in general, excepting that one huge porting process. 

I think a lot of people got fatigued with that porting process, both on the developer and the player side -- and given the awesome state of things now, we really don't have any incentive to do that again.  We're really in a place where we can keep doing more expansions and more DLC without having to fundamentally rip things apart again; it's a lot more growth-friendly now, which was part of our goal.

In terms of siege starships in particular, bear in mind that there are now a lot of very large ships: guardians, starships, golems, spirecraft, guard posts, and on and on.  The siege starships have a great role against them.  However, force fields and fortresses are really meant to be a certain type of difficult close-quarters engagement, and so having long-range ships good against them is a bad thing in general and definitely isn't coming back.  In general, having solutions where the player can expend a ton of time to avoid some other sort of penalty is something we try to avoid, as well.

Anyway, glad you're enjoying the new versions, and thanks for the kind words on it and Arcen, etc.  We're definitely in much stronger shape now, which I'm quite relieved about, of course. :)
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Offline vonduus

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Re: AI War Beta 5.007, "Zombies Are For Eating My Neighbors," Released!
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2011, 08:36:22 pm »
You are right about the big ships, there are a lot of them, and as they are free, knowledge-wise, I build them early on - I never did that back then, it was very seldom that I unlocked the whole line. Also, after observing how the Siege ships behave, I must say that I was a little too fast in calling them good for nothing, they are actually wreaking a lot of havoc all over the place.

I also like that the ai is not using turrets any more, it could be a grind. And I like the new approach to knowledge spending: Initially a lot of stuff is free, but when you want to upgrade, you get to pay a lot. The new experimental mechanism, where you can make the ships keep distance to their targets, looks great. And so on. There are so many things, that I am happy with, that this post would become a book, if I expanded on it.

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Offline x4000

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Re: AI War Beta 5.007, "Zombies Are For Eating My Neighbors," Released!
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2011, 08:40:41 pm »
Yeah, there's definitely a ton of big ships for the humans -- even more for the AI.  Glad you're liking the siege ships more with seeing them in action more!

And in general, glad you're really enjoying it more all around.  A lot of those were improvements that actually were in the final 4.0 version, but the balance was only fine-tuned afterward.  With version 4.0 of the game, it really took the asymmetrical nature of the experience to a whole new level, such as giving the AI guardians and bigger guard posts but taking away turrets for them, etc. 

And giving the player way more options to start with -- that was one I really like as well, because it means you can "try before you buy" in terms of knowledge expenditures.  That really helps to encourage wider experimentation, I think, rather than players just sticking with the "safe" options that they are familiar with already.
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Offline Vinraith

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Re: AI War Beta 5.007, "Zombies Are For Eating My Neighbors," Released!
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2011, 10:39:51 pm »
I've been out of the game for awhile but, umm, are spire shield posts supposed to have 300,000,000 health? That seems a little... excessive.  :-\

Offline x4000

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Re: AI War Beta 5.007, "Zombies Are For Eating My Neighbors," Released!
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2011, 11:12:09 pm »
I've been out of the game for awhile but, umm, are spire shield posts supposed to have 300,000,000 health? That seems a little... excessive.  :-\

Yeah, that was intentional.  With the right stuff on your side, the millions just fly by, actually.  By contrast, the largest force fields that aren't spire shields have 80 million health.
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Offline x4000

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Offline Vinraith

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Re: AI War Beta 5.007, "Zombies Are For Eating My Neighbors," Released!
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2011, 11:36:30 pm »
I've been out of the game for awhile but, umm, are spire shield posts supposed to have 300,000,000 health? That seems a little... excessive.  :-\

Yeah, that was intentional.  With the right stuff on your side, the millions just fly by, actually.  By contrast, the largest force fields that aren't spire shields have 80 million health.

A full cap of all four marks of bombers plus a full set of mark 1 bomber starships don't seem to make them fly by, really, and if I was playing above 7 (relearning, dontchaknow) I suspect those things would be effectively invulnerable. Absent turning on "Fallen Spire" what else constitutes the "right stuff" to tackle those?

Offline x4000

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Re: AI War Beta 5.007, "Zombies Are For Eating My Neighbors," Released!
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2011, 11:41:16 pm »
Hmmm, that should do it, although since siege starships no longer can hit them that does cut down some on the carnage; I don't think I've looked at their stats overmuch since then.  You could throw in some merc bombers or some higher-mark bomber starships if you wanted.  I think the last time I ran into these, I happened to have some good-against-FF bonus ship types, like electric bombers, which really do speed things along.

At any rate, thinking about this more in light of the siege thing, there may be some balance needed here.  How long is it taking to go down with all of that you have on it?
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Offline Vinraith

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Re: AI War Beta 5.007, "Zombies Are For Eating My Neighbors," Released!
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2011, 12:07:29 am »
With a full cap of all four marks of bombers, 4 mark 1 bombstars, and a cap of fighters for cover, I can take down a Mk III spire shield in about 3 - 4 minutes. With only mark 1 - 3 bombers and mark 1 bombstars it's more like 6 - 7.



Offline Philo

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Re: AI War Beta 5.007, "Zombies Are For Eating My Neighbors," Released!
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2011, 01:32:17 am »
I think the Spire Shield Guard Posts are just fine. I think some stuff just needs to be a little excessive to make it interesting. I haven't really had much trouble with them. You don't always need to destroy them either, unless there's some invincibility provider under the forcefield. Even then, Raid starships could take care oft those.

Part of the fun is having some really powerful stuff that you have to invest lots of resources (in this case troops) to battle against.