Author Topic: AI War Beta 4.064 Released!  (Read 6009 times)

Offline x4000

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Re: AI War Beta 4.064 Released!
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2011, 08:54:55 pm »
One quick note:

Regarding the siege starships in .065: they are good for hitting large and dangerous structures.  IE, guard posts, guardians, and all sorts of things along those lines (various special weapons, etc).  Also starships, spirecraft, the big spire ships, the list goes on and on.

What they are NOT good for is striking force fields with impunity from a range far exceeding whatever is under the force field has.  That's also why the snipers lost their ability to strike under force fields.  Both made AI force fields rather pointless, as the smartest move for AI ships was to just fly out from under them.  Additionally, it wasn't exactly good for player forcefields either, and made counter-sniper turrets basically a requirement for any games with snipers in them.

In the past, we had these interesting situations where players would encounter this tough nut of AI ships under an AI forcefield, and they would have to get close enough to hurt it with bombers while protecting those bombers from adjacent ships that would eat them up.  That made for pretty interesting tactical decisions depending on what was under that force field, and if two were close together, etc.

In recent versions, it's simply been a matter of "bring in some ultra-long-range anti-forcefield stuff, and wait."  That was soo lame.  While I appreciate Keith's desire to have a big glass cannon type unit, and in fact the siege starship has become perhaps my favorite starship, it doesn't have any proper place in dealing with forcefields or fortresses.  Those two units are about having to cleverly attack a deadly short-range adversary while guarding that which is able to attack the adversary.  Anything that is able to violate the range of that completely invalidates that scenario.

This was a case where I noticed that some interesting tactical situations were getting subsumed by some ships that were getting a bit too big for their britches, so to speak, so in order to preserve those tactical situations the offending ships have had their roles segmented.  This makes siege starships still extremely useful, but their no longer a "jack of all trades against anything large."  In a lot of respects, that makes the bomber starship have a bit more of a unique role, too.

I am surprised by the folks lamenting the usefulness of siege starships now, as they are still incredibly useful against a huge range of ships.  I mean, half the AI's firepower is massive stuff that the siege starship is basically able to hit with impunity from incredible range.  I mean... that's basically win.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI War Beta 4.064 Released!
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2011, 09:00:13 pm »
...
I am surprised by the folks lamenting the usefulness of siege starships now, as they are still incredibly useful against a huge range of ships.  I mean, half the AI's firepower is massive stuff that the siege starship is basically able to hit with impunity from incredible range.  I mean... that's basically win.

Here is the thing. Yes siege starships are win. But bomber starships are even bigger win for all the jobs the siege starship is supposed to do, except for range. (Note, I am comparing Mk. I versions, Mk. II and III versions differ greatly in their attack and durability, with siege focusing on attack and bombers focusing on durability), but at Mk. I, the bomber starships does about the same damage, against more stuff (in this next patch), with better durabilty (enough so to actually survive an offensive attack). The only downside at Mk. I is their range.

Maybe if the Mk. I versions differed more, I would be more willing to unlock and experiment with Mk. II siege starships.

Offline snrub_guy

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Re: AI War Beta 4.064 Released!
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2011, 05:29:12 am »
Seems to me that the range thing does increase a sieges usefulness in comparison to the bomber. Being able to pick off a guard post, unshielded command post, fortress, eye or data centre without having to trek across a planet constantly under fire is a big plus in my eyes. Generally I'll bring a fleet of heavy bombers to take down a forcefield anyway, so this isn't a massive loss for me.

Offline Varone

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Re: AI War Beta 4.064 Released!
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2011, 05:34:14 am »
The strategy with bomber starships and siege ones are completly different. For example, have you ever got a cloaker starship along with a transport+siege starships.

Bring your cloaked ships into the AI system and the siege starship can attack at huge range against all the guardians and guard posts with impunity. When the AI gets close with fleet ships, put the siege starships back in the transport. So there, i'm bringing the siege starships on offence and they do it really well.  So even at MK1 the way you should use the bomber starship and the siege is totally different.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI War Beta 4.064 Released!
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2011, 12:30:27 pm »
The strategy with bomber starships and siege ones are completly different. For example, have you ever got a cloaker starship along with a transport+siege starships.

Bring your cloaked ships into the AI system and the siege starship can attack at huge range against all the guardians and guard posts with impunity. When the AI gets close with fleet ships, put the siege starships back in the transport. So there, i'm bringing the siege starships on offence and they do it really well.  So even at MK1 the way you should use the bomber starship and the siege is totally different.

Ooh, transports+siege starships, why didn't I think of that? Thanks for the tip, I'm going to have to try that.

Offline Vinraith

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Re: AI War Beta 4.064 Released!
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2011, 12:40:02 pm »
So if I'm reading this right, siege starships have been somewhat retasked to be defensive units intended to bring down large AI ships on the attack, and perhaps mop-up units to remove large structures once the forcefields and primary threat on an AI world is gone?

Offline x4000

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Re: AI War Beta 4.064 Released!
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2011, 01:08:20 pm »
So if I'm reading this right, siege starships have been somewhat retasked to be defensive units intended to bring down large AI ships on the attack, and perhaps mop-up units to remove large structures once the forcefields and primary threat on an AI world is gone?

Well... somewhat.  But they're also quite good against guardians and guard posts, etc, which exist in offensive scenarios, and the vast majority of which don't involve force fields.  Starships, for that matter, are often hugely involved in offensive circumstances.

That said, Keith has the following related changes he's put in, that he and I talked about in response to some of the complaints in this thread:

Quote
* Siege Starship:
** Base Range from 35000 => 16000 (meaning that actual range from 38000 => 19000).
** Base Health from 1,000,000 => 2,500,000.

* AI Beam Guardian Base Range from 10k/12k/14k/16k/18k => flat 10k.
* AI Artillery Guardian Base Range from 31k/32k/33k/34k/35k => flat 15k (so slightly less than a siege starship).
* AI Laser Guardian Base Range from 7k/8k/9k/10k/11k/12k => flat 7k.
* AI Vampire Guardian Base Range from 13k/16k/19k/22k/25k => flat 10k.

* Spire Starship Base Range from 17k => 10k.

* Laser Cannon Module (including variants used by Hybrids, Spire Capital Ships, and Spire city defenses) base range from 20k => 10k.

* Spire Frigate Base Range from 13k => 10k.

* All AI guard posts (except wormhole guard posts and special forces guard posts) now have radar dampening of 7500/7000/6500/6000/5500.

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Offline Red Spot

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Re: AI War Beta 4.064 Released!
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2011, 01:10:32 pm »
You nasty man .....  8)
I just replayed the same map as I did in the 2 previous versions, it has become a clear notch more difficult to beat the same level AI .. me likes :)
The are more agressive, combine firepower from several planets (when a wave hits I often find several other planets 'supporting' this wave by launching attacks), defend better (I had whole sets of bombers nuked before they could seriously scratch their target).
I really am not sure if that has been intended, but 4.064/4.063 sure seem to improve overall AI behaviour quite a bit.

(slight negative sidenote though, it seems that UI related things have become a bit messy here and there)

Offline x4000

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Re: AI War Beta 4.064 Released!
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2011, 01:15:18 pm »
Yep, all of that's intended with the AI behaviors, etc.  It only took a few changes in the code, but then it was properly able to use the emergent behavior that's always been there again.  The problem was that some of the more recent rules had been kind of castrating the AI's ability to use all that fancy emergent stuff that has been a staple for so long.  Now it's back!

In terms of the UI stuff, please just let us know about those as you find them, if they haven't already been reported in mantis.  We're aware of a number of them that people already reported, and will be taking care of those, but it's a case where we redid the whole UI system in order to prevent some errors that had been there before (that we couldn't fix in any other way), and that introduced a whole host of new errors (that we can indeed fix as we find them).  So just let us know!
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI War Beta 4.064 Released!
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2011, 01:16:11 pm »
Hmm, interesting move towards nerfing artillery in general.

I do like how Siege starships actually have noticeable health now.  :)

Offline Echo35

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Re: AI War Beta 4.064 Released!
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2011, 01:33:06 pm »
Hmm, interesting move towards nerfing artillery in general.

I do like how Siege starships actually have noticeable health now.  :)

I approve. Now that the Siege Starships actually out range Guardians, it makes them actually worth using.

Offline x4000

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Re: AI War Beta 4.064 Released!
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2011, 01:41:07 pm »
A lot of the way-too-large-range ships (on the AI side even moreso than the human side, honestly) were causing the battlefields-within-battlefields feel of the game to get lost.  Each guard post (or, sometimes, cluster of guard posts) is meant to be something that can be approached somewhat independently in most circumstances.  That hasn't been the case, lately, so the latest changes are all about toning down the non-sniper stuff that is ultra-long-range.
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Offline wyvern83

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Re: AI War Beta 4.064 Released!
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2011, 04:16:15 pm »
Quote
Spirecraft Penetrators also now have a flame wave attack type instead of mass driver so that they can actually hit guardians.

    * Thanks to PineappleSam for reporting.


Could they keep the mass driver sound? I much prefer that sound over the flame wave attack. (it reminds me of a car horn, though I'm fine with others liking it if they do)


Offline x4000

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Re: AI War Beta 4.064 Released!
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2011, 04:21:46 pm »
I can't mix and match sounds and attack types, they're tied together.
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Offline ShadowOTE

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Re: AI War Beta 4.064 Released!
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2011, 05:44:37 pm »
I can't mix and match sounds and attack types, they're tied together.

Damn it Jim, I'm a Computer Programmer, not an Audio Engineer!